nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Thats excellent info! Thanks. One of my big questions was whether Yamaha would try to back out of anything if Seafoam was used instead of their own product, but it doesn't sound like it. Of course they may not be able to tell anyway.
For this info that you got, is it insider information thats "off the record", or is it from a source that you can give out so that we could quote it for stubborn dealers? I know there might be some question about how valid the problem is for those who only use a quart every 2,000 miles or so...they typical blowby that could be claimed as normal...but for those of us who go from full to having the oil light turn on in well under 300 miles, there isn't much arguing that it could be normal.
Jim
For this info that you got, is it insider information thats "off the record", or is it from a source that you can give out so that we could quote it for stubborn dealers? I know there might be some question about how valid the problem is for those who only use a quart every 2,000 miles or so...they typical blowby that could be claimed as normal...but for those of us who go from full to having the oil light turn on in well under 300 miles, there isn't much arguing that it could be normal.
Jim
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
MrSled said:I have found some Yamaha feed back on this topic:
If the Seafoam/Ring-Free doesn't work, units will likely need the '05 rings installed. There is no bulletin or campaign, if a customer has a problem they will need to get to their dealer and provide good info so Yamaha can confirm and validate a REAL problem.
If the unit is past warranty Yamaha will need to discuss with the dealer about possible goodwill repair. But any out of warranty units will be "case-by case discussion".
I sincerely hope that all you guys who have this problem jump on this opportunity. After all one of the reasons we bought 4 strokers is so we would not have to mess with adding oil every morning. Start having friendly but firm discussions with your dealers about the fix.
Thanks Mr. Sled. Your follow up on requests is remarkable
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Its very good info but you have to remember that this is oil consumption problem has to be well documented as excessive and that each issue will be looked at on a individual bases....
impalapower
TY 4 Stroke God
If you aren't adding more than one quart for every 3000 miles or so, don't worry. The engine will still outlast the chassis.
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Basically, I was told by my dealer (not the dimwits I used to deal with) that the only way I have a chance of getting Yamaha to do something is if Yamaha Corp. has it on record that I had the oil consumption issue while the sled was under warranty. I did report it to the dealer, and I told Yamaha about it when I talked with them on the phone, but both blew it off as normal (at that time it went from full to low oil light in 400-500 miles). So because they blew it off so casually, I highly doubt either of them documented it. Now I'm looking at praying that I get through the season, then I have to yank the engine and replace the rings...on a sled I paid over $9000 for only 2 years ago, and I bought for the engine. What a load of crap...talk about bailing on their customers. I'm crossing my fingers that someone kept a record of my complaints...and even then, nothing may get done...but I'm hoping.
Jim
Jim
PARX
Veteran
Is it possible that break in has anything to do with this issue, I had an 03 that the flywheel bolts sheared off & bolt heads were dancing around crankshaft at cylinder #4, dealer ended up buying sled back & I went elsewhere to buy 04. dealer where i bought 04 stressed the 500 mile break in period, said if I don't break it in, it WILL USE OIL. Of course the 03 was balls to the walls out of the box, & the 04 I broke in. the 03 with 300 miles never added oil, the 04 with 800 miles never added yet. Just installed ECP w/EVAC & did not ride yet this year, i do not think breather has anything to do with the oil consumption, my factory breather was oil free, & we ride hard. Is it possible ring seating is the issue?
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Well I just got off the phone with Yamaha Corp. Customer Support/Service. They claim they know nothing about oil usage issues, or any ring changes. They also told me that neither dealer I went to documented my complaint about the oil problem!!! So now I KNOW this won't be dealt with unless I dig out the bucks and pay to have it done. So I'm left with a $9200 sled that I bought planning this high tech, 4 stroke engine would last me many years of service, and now it uses more oil than my 2-smoke riding friends. Also, if its a ring problem (which seems like the most obvious option), then with the rings this bad to blow over 1 quart of oil in 200-300 miles, then I must be losing out on some power as well, although thats not my main worry. I'm more concerned with how much oil this will use this season, and how long I can go until this problem will result in fouled plugs and other problems from the oil being burned.
Thanks Yamaha for the screwing! My next sled will DEFINATELY be a Cat turbo now! They may have their issues, and a few less HP, but they stand behind their products and take care of their customers. And I haven't heard of a 660 burning oil yet.
O.K., stepping off my soap box now. I'll probably regret tying this right after talking with them without waiting a while to cool down, but I felt the need to blow off steam.
Jim
Tom-RX1
Expert
But have you tried the seafoam yet ?
Tom-RX1
Tom-RX1
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Not yet...since I won't have to worry about whether Yamaha would mind, I'm definately going to try it. I just had to vent earlier...I'm feeling much better now. I'll have to get some seafoam soon and run it though the first tank of fuel I use.
And speaking of which, to deal with rings, would you guys reccomend putting it in the tank instead of through carbs? I used it in a Jeep down the intake to get rid of carbon buildup on the pictons...but I think for the rings, the tank would be better...thoughts?
Jim
And speaking of which, to deal with rings, would you guys reccomend putting it in the tank instead of through carbs? I used it in a Jeep down the intake to get rid of carbon buildup on the pictons...but I think for the rings, the tank would be better...thoughts?
Jim
Tom-RX1
Expert
with the amount of oil you say your using i would add it to both the oil and the gas and run about 30 miles and change the oil .
Tom-RX1
Tom-RX1
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I would use ring free and give that a try and do as the bottle says and change your oil .....before going any further with this. I am telling you this just to be sure that if you have been asked if you have tried the ring free ...you can answer yes
Roadrunner
Expert
I posted this before, but here it is again
FYI, here's what I did at the end of the season using seafoam. I removed the spark plugs and raised the back of the sled so the rear bumper was approx. 5 feet off the ground. Since the motor is angled backwards in the sled approximately 30 degrees, raising the sled this amount will make the top if the piston parallel with the ground. This would insure that the seafoam would contact the rings all the way around. I then put maybe 1 ounce or so of seafoam in each spark plug hole and turned the motor over by hand. I let the seafoam work for a couple of days occasionally turning the motor 1/2 a turn. After 2 days I used the starter to crank the motor over for 5 seconds and then lowered the sled to the floor and replaced the spark plugs. The sled fired right up with maybe a slight puff of smoke. After it warmed up it sure seems to idle smoother and I even think it starts easier. My exhaust tips seem to stay cleaner also. Oh, by the way, I removed the skis before I lifted the back, the front bumper will almost touch the ground this way if you lift it high enough.
I figured by doing it this way I could get concentrated Seafoam right to the rings.
FYI, here's what I did at the end of the season using seafoam. I removed the spark plugs and raised the back of the sled so the rear bumper was approx. 5 feet off the ground. Since the motor is angled backwards in the sled approximately 30 degrees, raising the sled this amount will make the top if the piston parallel with the ground. This would insure that the seafoam would contact the rings all the way around. I then put maybe 1 ounce or so of seafoam in each spark plug hole and turned the motor over by hand. I let the seafoam work for a couple of days occasionally turning the motor 1/2 a turn. After 2 days I used the starter to crank the motor over for 5 seconds and then lowered the sled to the floor and replaced the spark plugs. The sled fired right up with maybe a slight puff of smoke. After it warmed up it sure seems to idle smoother and I even think it starts easier. My exhaust tips seem to stay cleaner also. Oh, by the way, I removed the skis before I lifted the back, the front bumper will almost touch the ground this way if you lift it high enough.
I figured by doing it this way I could get concentrated Seafoam right to the rings.
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
O.K., here is where I'm at. I put almost a full bottle of Seafoam in my tank, except for a couple ounces which I added to the oil, and a few more ounces which I kept in the can so I could put it in the spark plug holes after riding through the tank of fuel. I ran most of that tank of fuel through, putting about 100 miles on the sled. I came home, jacked the back of the sled up, and put a couple tablespoons of Seafoam down each spark plug hole. The sled sat for a couple days like that.
When I removed the plugs they were all oil soaked and black. They were pretty nasty looking, with carbon deposits along with the oil. I carefully looked down each plug hole and looked at the piston tops, and they were just as black and carboned up.
Tonight I took the time to hack a spark plug apart (since they were so nasty I didn't want to put them back in) and make a compression gauge adapter. This is what I got for readings, from left (clutch) side to right, with clean cylinders since the Seafoam all leaked down out of the cylinders:
155/165/150/165
I'm experienced with automotive engines, but never did a compression test on a performance bike engine. These numbers, although they could be a bit more consistent, look pretty good to me...but what should they be for this particular engine?
I haven't done a leakdown test yet, but I plan to make a tester using the adapter I made. Any new suggestions? I'll do another, more accurate test after buying some new plugs and running the sled to clean out the cylinders and warm up the engine. I just wanted to test the gauge tonight and see what I got for rough readings.
Jim
When I removed the plugs they were all oil soaked and black. They were pretty nasty looking, with carbon deposits along with the oil. I carefully looked down each plug hole and looked at the piston tops, and they were just as black and carboned up.
Tonight I took the time to hack a spark plug apart (since they were so nasty I didn't want to put them back in) and make a compression gauge adapter. This is what I got for readings, from left (clutch) side to right, with clean cylinders since the Seafoam all leaked down out of the cylinders:
155/165/150/165
I'm experienced with automotive engines, but never did a compression test on a performance bike engine. These numbers, although they could be a bit more consistent, look pretty good to me...but what should they be for this particular engine?
I haven't done a leakdown test yet, but I plan to make a tester using the adapter I made. Any new suggestions? I'll do another, more accurate test after buying some new plugs and running the sled to clean out the cylinders and warm up the engine. I just wanted to test the gauge tonight and see what I got for rough readings.
Jim
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Well I found the following in another thread:
"Yamaha say in service manual that 179 is poor 209 is normal and 225 is good."
If thats the case, which makes sense with this higher compression engine, then I have serious problems. I just bought new plugs today and put them in...as soon as my battery is off charging (about 45 minutes more) I'm taking it out for a short test ride to burn off the Seafoam from the cylinders and warm up the sled, then bring it back in for a more accurate test. I'm not liking what I'm seeing, but I have to say it doesn't surprise me. I was just hoping it would turn out to be something minor.
Jim
"Yamaha say in service manual that 179 is poor 209 is normal and 225 is good."
If thats the case, which makes sense with this higher compression engine, then I have serious problems. I just bought new plugs today and put them in...as soon as my battery is off charging (about 45 minutes more) I'm taking it out for a short test ride to burn off the Seafoam from the cylinders and warm up the sled, then bring it back in for a more accurate test. I'm not liking what I'm seeing, but I have to say it doesn't surprise me. I was just hoping it would turn out to be something minor.
Jim
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
O.K., this is strange. I figured the compression would go down after I ran it to get the last Seafoam residue out of the cylinders, but it went UP. I couldn't take it for a ride (no snow here right now) but I let it warm up for quite a while, and I reved it up enough to burn off anything in the cylinders. This is what I get now (tested while the engine was still warm, from clutch side out):
205/195/195/200
Doesn't look so bad now. Since it looks like whatever is causing the oil problem at least isn't a broken part (broke ring, damaged piston or cylinder, etc.) then immediate action isn't 100% necessary. I guess I'll buy a battery and work on testing the charging problem and see if I can get it back operational again to be able to finish out the season. I'll still run the Seafoam through it every couple tanks of fuel to see if that helps, and I'm going to try the mist of water trick to try to get rid of the carbon on the pistons.
Jim
Jim
205/195/195/200
Doesn't look so bad now. Since it looks like whatever is causing the oil problem at least isn't a broken part (broke ring, damaged piston or cylinder, etc.) then immediate action isn't 100% necessary. I guess I'll buy a battery and work on testing the charging problem and see if I can get it back operational again to be able to finish out the season. I'll still run the Seafoam through it every couple tanks of fuel to see if that helps, and I'm going to try the mist of water trick to try to get rid of the carbon on the pistons.
Jim
Jim
