to ontario riders

[ecopter]

Quote from Irv: Like I have said before, work definitely needs to be done but blaming the OFSC for riders getting out of the sport is right off side imo.
People think of nothing buying a $10,000-$15,000 snowmobile, a $2000 to $5000 trailer but complain about the the price of a permit? That to me is off side big time!


I spent over three hundred thousand dollars on my home, but I still shop at Lowes and Home Depot when they have sales. I also shop for household goods at Walmart. That too was a big expenditure. Your logic implies I have to shop at Saks Fifth Avenue for all my goods since I spend all that money on my home.

 

[Irv]

Quote from Irv: Like I have said before, work definitely needs to be done but blaming the OFSC for riders getting out of the sport is right off side imo.
People think of nothing buying a $10,000-$15,000 snowmobile, a $2000 to $5000 trailer but complain about the the price of a permit? That to me is off side big time!


I spent over three hundred thousand dollars on my home, but I still shop at Lowes and Home Depot when they have sales. I also shop for household goods at Walmart. That too was a big expenditure. Your logic implies I have to shop at Saks Fifth Avenue for all my goods since I spend all that money on my home.

You get that out of what I wrote, really?
Personally, I am not sure how that even remotely implies what you think it does?

All I said is, people will spend large amounts of money to go snowmobiling then complain when they have to spend $200 on a permit, it's not telling them they should pay $2000 for it is it?
Basically what I am say is, when they are sitting down figuring out their budget on how much they are going to spend on a sled, trailer, gear, accessories etc, they should be including one of the cheapest things to, and that is the price of a permit.

And your previous post that I just seen. Do you really believe those 5000 Americans aren't coming here just because our permit is priced the way it is, or do you actually think it might have anything to do with the economy, the american/cdn parity on money, the price of fuel etc etc etc? Nah, can't be can it

 

[ecopter]

I've spoken to many that used to, and that's the reason.

 

[thunderbolt]

Irv you clearly aren't with the program , when you said you were done with this thread maybe you should have done just that , it appears your just digging a bigger hole , over and over again it 's said IF YOUR NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION YOUR PART OFTHE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sasquatch]

To Irv the permit price is fair! That's fine! I'm grateful that he and a few others think that way. No need to get them on board they are already there.

Problem is sometimes they don't see the fact that, My 05 Warrior is 130 bucks a year for pl pd. My 05 Warrior is paid for. So the price of the 210 pass is a huge amount more. 210 dollars will buy 5 to 6 tanks of fuel. Or as much or more then most spend on fuel in a year.

Why do people think that everyone who rides a sled buys a new one every year? The people I need to get back to buying passes ride older sleds! They may have a old trailer they bought 10 or 15 years ago! They may not own one at all!

I think the OFSC trying to boost sales and show value forget that not everyone buys a new sled every year or second year. Every time I hear someone basiclly quoting the OFSC,s stand on value for their pass I notice of course its like me a die hard sledder already on board and buying passes every year.

Of course you can shout it to the roof tops morning noon and night and it does nothing to sell a pass to a guy who who has a cost of say like my 600 Cat of 90 bucks a year for insurance for PL PD. Those people can't see the value of a 210 dollar pass. They could care less about 30 something thousand kms of trails. Longest they ride is 30 to 60 miles from home.

Has poor snow hurt us? Of course it has! Has people loosing thier jobs hurt us? Of course it has! But poor snow comes and goes and has for the last 20 years. The OFSC sells value! People think the value is not there, that is the bottom line!

Argue value to justify the pass price if you want but every year less buy in but many of those still ride. Put the price of the pass on the validation tags and some people may stop buying tags alltogether but everyone who is left riding will support the trails. That to me is what everyone seems to want! I know I do!

Just bought a leftover Apex XTX. So I'm still in.

:rules

 

[thunderbolt]

To Irv the permit price is fair! That's fine! I'm grateful that he and a few others think that way. No need to get them on board they are already there.

Problem is sometimes they don't see the fact that, My 05 Warrior is 130 bucks a year for pl pd. My 05 Warrior is paid for. So the price of the 210 pass is a huge amount more. 210 dollars will buy 5 to 6 tanks of fuel. Or as much or more then most spend on fuel in a year.

Why do people think that everyone who rides a sled buys a new one every year? The people I need to get back to buying passes ride older sleds! They may have a old trailer they bought 10 or 15 years ago! They may not own one at all!

I think the OFSC trying to boost sales and show value forget that not everyone buys a new sled every year or second year. Every time I hear someone basiclly quoting the OFSC,s stand on value for their pass I notice of course its like me a die hard sledder already on board and buying passes every year.

Of course you can shout it to the roof tops morning noon and night and it does nothing to sell a pass to a guy who who has a cost of say like my 600 Cat of 90 bucks a year for insurance for PL PD. Those people can't see the value of a 210 dollar pass. They could care less about 30 something thousand kms of trails. Longest they ride is 30 to 60 miles from home.

Has poor snow hurt us? Of course it has! Has people loosing thier jobs hurt us? Of course it has! But poor snow comes and goes and has for the last 20 years. The OFSC sells value! People think the value is not there, that is the bottom line!

Argue value to justify the pass price if you want but every year less buy in but many of those still ride. Put the price of the pass on the validation tags and some people may stop buying tags alltogether but everyone who is left riding will support the trails. That to me is what everyone seems to want! I know I do!

Just bought a leftover Apex XTX. So I'm still in.

:rules

YYYYYYYYYYUP

 

[SledFreak]

I agree how to get the non compliant riders back on board! Big issue and the tag on registration not only does this but also leave the volunteers more time to work on trails and less time checking trail passes. Hundreds of hours spent on the trails IMHO does more for the trails and gives the clubs a better reputation all around then hundreds of hours stopping sledders!

Nobody seems to like enforcment and those who enforce. I'm sure if you where stopped three times a day or more to see your licence, insurance etc you would be pissed about it. Why do we have to put up trail blocks and stop riders? To me that is the police that should be doing that not trail patrol. Let them take the heat!

All that has happened from the increasing trail pass price is volunteers going face to face with non compliant riders. Sure the non compliant's are in the wrong but the volunteer getting in thier face does nothing to boost the feeling towards the club. To me looking after the trails and or helping as an director ect is all a volunteer should be expected to do.

Pass on val tag frees up manpower all around and makes confrontation a thing of the past. JMHO!

Continue to lobby the OFSC via clubs and distric directors presidents ect and keep talking about change is the road to follow. To me pass on tag is the answer. I will however fully support a regional trail pass. At least I stand a better chance of selling that!

Well said!

IRV, You are out of touch with the riders. You sound exactly like the people that run the OFSC. It has nothing to do with Volunteers/volunteering. The price of the permit has nothing to do with Volunteers of each Club. The issue is the Price Point and the quality of the trails as far as grooming is concerned. PERIOD!!!! OFSC sets the price, CORRECT?

And you are out of touch finacially!

On one hand hand you say the trails are 50% junk half the time, and that the OFSC needs to groom 24/7, but yet you complain about the price of the permit

Where exactly do you think the money is going to come from to pay for fuel, the groomers, the insurance and the rate some places HAVE to pay the groomer operators because they can't get enough volunteers to do it!

Here is another example of critizing volunteers, you say you are not happy with the current state of your trails and not once have I heard from you that you're greatful for what they have done, just what they haven't done or do!

When is the last time you have offered to groom late at night, or anytime for that matter?

Anyways, here is a good news story and one that shows at least the OFSC is doing what it can where it can, and to me proves that they are not just sitting on their hands doing nothing

The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) has recently approved the upgrading of the snowmobile trail designation which connects Mattawa to North Bay on the north side of the Mattawa River.

The upgraded status is now a Trans Ontario Provincial (TOP) Connector instead of local club trails. The new TOP Connector trail has been designated as TOP A112A and replaces the North Bay Snowmobilers Club NB301 trail as well as the Mattawa and Area Snowmobile Club trails MA105 and MA101 and will be shown as such on the new District 11 Trail Map.

The new TOP Collector tail is 91 kilometres in length and connects to the TOP A trail south of Mattawa and the TOP A2 trail east of Trout Lake in North Bay. The Mattawa and Area Snowmobile Club initiated the request to the OFSC with support from the North Bay Snowmobilers Club.

Jeff McGirr, Economic Development Officer for the Mattawa – Bonfield Economic Development Corporation, is very pleased with the OFSC’s decision as he thinks that the large number of touring snowmobilers will be attracted to the higher designation of TOP Connector and this will undoubtedly bring more snowmobile traffic into the Mattawa and Bonfield areas. Mr. McGirr says that the increasing popularity of the RAP (Round Algonquin Park) Tour is generating much more tourism business over the past few years, and he thinks the new TOP A112A trail designation will only help draw more sledders to this area.

In addition, the already popular loop between North Bay and Mattawa will undoubtedly increase in popularity as many snowmobilers will now travel TOP A along the south side of Highway 17 and then take the TOP A112A back along the north side of Highway 17.

The President of the North Bay Snowmobilers Club, Brian Baker, says another important impact of the new OFSC TOP Collector designation will be the increased availability of trail infrastructure funding that is available from the Ontario Tourist Development Fund. Local trails are not currently eligible for TDF funding and Mr. Baker advises that NBSC will now be applying for funding for new bridges over both Balsam Creek and the North River as a consequence of the OFSC’s upgrade in trail status.

Both the North Bay and Mattawa and Area Snowmobile Clubs have commenced selling of Trail Permits for the 2012 – 2013 snowmobiling season. For further information see www.mattawasc.ca and www.nbsc.ca

I thought you said you were done with this Irv?You say Sledfreak is outta touch financially?Lots of big talk and what does all this trail talk have to do with what we are talking about getting a affordable price for permits and getting thoses who ride for free to come on board

Guess I couldn't help myself as I can't believe what I read.

Asking the OFSC to cut permit costs then asking them to spend more money on grooming?

I guess you and me think differently TB as I can't see the prices going lower when the cost of everything else has risen dramatically.

A lot on here are asking for $100 dollar permits again, and I don't see that as being a problem, as long as we can get the groomer manu's to cut their groomer prices in half, cut insurance prices in half, cut gas prices in half, cut what it cost to make signs, posters, ads and everything else in half too. Should be easy shouldn't it?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree as like what I have stated, I think the permit price is fair and is still a good bargain considering what we get for it.

Irv, The 24/7 was sarcastic. That's because they only groom 1 or twice a week. You keep asking yourself this. How does everyone else states and provinces do it for less? I'm not an idiot when it comes to financials. After 9 pages of posts, everyone keeps talking about the same issue. The price point... How does everyone else do it for less? Gas is 4 bucks a gallon in the U.S, but yet they figure how to keep the permit low and Quebec includes there insurance.

 

[SledFreak]

I think the OFSC trying to boost sales and show value forget that not everyone buys a new sled every year or second year. Every time I hear someone basiclly quoting the OFSC,s stand on value for their pass I notice of course its like me a die hard sledder already on board and buying passes every year.

Of course you can shout it to the roof tops morning noon and night and it does nothing to sell a pass to a guy who who has a cost of say like my 600 Cat of 90 bucks a year for insurance for PL PD. Those people can't see the value of a 210 dollar pass. They could care less about 30 something thousand kms of trails. Longest they ride is 30 to 60 miles from home.

Has poor snow hurt us? Of course it has! Has people loosing thier jobs hurt us? Of course it has! But poor snow comes and goes and has for the last 20 years. The OFSC sells value! People think the value is not there, that is the bottom line!

Argue value to justify the pass price if you want but every year less buy in but many of those still ride. Put the price of the pass on the validation tags and some people may stop buying tags alltogether but everyone who is left riding will support the trails. That to me is what everyone seems to want! I know I do!

Just bought a leftover Apex XTX. So I'm still in.

:rules

Excellent post... There is no value in 210.00 a year, per sled, especially when there is only a 1/3rd of the trails open.

Irv, you can get alot of 1 or 2 year, left over sleds in the crate, for 7-8 thousand. So its not 10-15000.

 

[thunderbolt]

This is an excellent post , so how do we get the OFSC and government to listen . I don't think voicing this at the AGM is going to do it because not enough of the rider population is there , perhaps starting petition ? If I knew how to start one here I would . The snowmobile show is this weekend and I know the OFSC will be there perhaps if enough riders were to stop by the OFSC booth and voice their opinion ?Just suggestions and if anybody has any ideas on getting our point accross please bring them forward . We can get what want if we stick together and not get blinded by bunch of sales pitches and masked ideas which doesn't drop the cost at all

 

[Irv]

This is an excellent post , so how do we get the OFSC and government to listen . I don't think voicing this at the AGM is going to do it because not enough of the rider population is there , perhaps starting petition ? If I knew how to start one here I would . The snowmobile show is this weekend and I know the OFSC will be there perhaps if enough riders were to stop by the OFSC booth and voice their opinion ?Just suggestions and if anybody has any ideas on getting our point accross please bring them forward . We can get what want if we stick together and not get blinded by bunch of sales pitches and masked ideas which doesn't drop the cost at all

Best idea I have heard from you yet

But you still haven't answered a couple questions I asked?

Namely, what is it that should be done about the club that is basically ripping off the OFSC by claiming false grooming hours? Does this type of behaviour not contribute to higher permit costs?

Also, you mentioned about your club not being transparent and that they basically go to the AGM with their own agenda and questions and don't ask for any input from it's volunteers or anyone else for that matter?
Are you happy with that, especially knowing that is not the way to go about business?


Are these some of the issues you're concerned within the OFSC or is it strictly with the price of the permit?

 

[thunderbolt]

thoses were just examples of what I have seen at the AGM . If you care to read and understand my replies you will know that yes I'm concerned with some other issues but this thread is about permit prices and that is where I have been directing my replies . So Irv stay with the program we are talking about inflated permit prices .

 

[Sevey]

To continue this, I believe two things would have to happen. One, is there an example of this elsewhere in the province that we/the ofsc can learn from - has a 'federated' body of any kind had the province collect their funding for them via licensing or some other means. And two, do the members or permit holders of ofsc want it. A poll, survey may be in order here.

I have given the idea of having a permit fee tacked onto 'paying for the annual license'. This is no small proposition. You are asking the province to collect and then pass the fee on to a non govermental body. Surely they are going to want a fee for this.

Also you cant compare this to the same as an automobile. Cars use roads, the goverment is responsible for roads. They probably arent even remotel interested in looking after trails. We also pay horrendous amounts of taxes on our gasoline that is supposed to be used on our transportation network. This in part is true but the gas tax has turned into a government slush fund to be directed where they see fit. Imagine if the goverment started abusing funds collected for the ofsc trail network. Who is going to oversea and govern this - the attorney general. To think they will conduct this in an open book fashion is dreaming.

In principle this is a good idea, but will take some very high level people to get the provinces ear and make it work.

Just a thougt
MS

 

[Dano]

Namely, what is it that should be done about the club that is basically ripping off the OFSC by claiming false grooming hours? Does this type of behaviour not contribute to higher permit costs?

Also, you mentioned about your club not being transparent and that they basically go to the AGM with their own agenda and questions and don't ask for any input from it's volunteers or anyone else for that matter?
Are you happy with that, especially knowing that is not the way to go about business?


Are these some of the issues you're concerned within the OFSC or is it strictly with the price of the permit?

OFSC usually calculates your future budget by your previously years hours/cost, which promotes clubs to falsify numbers to secure funds in the future. It's a stupid system as you should not be penalized for a poor winter.
When I was a club president years ago, I found the system not easy and cost effective as you couldn't shift money's around to where you needed it from locations you didn't need it. Example is our club had fuel for the groomer donated for the season, but couldn't shift the allocated fuel allotment to where we needed it such as paying off our groomer. That's just one example of many.

I believe the AGM meetings work more on a quick solution for that particular year allotment, thus leaving out the big picture solution. The easiest short term budget fix is to tally up last years budget and adjust permit prices to offset less sold. Kind of what we see in politics as some think raising taxes will fix the budget, which in turn fixes in a short period. On the other hand, dropping taxes and increasing spending ability builds a stronger economy as power in numbers spend away.
I think this is where it's at with the OFSC. Something has to give and a change has to be done.

Dan

 

[Irv]

Namely, what is it that should be done about the club that is basically ripping off the OFSC by claiming false grooming hours? Does this type of behaviour not contribute to higher permit costs?

Also, you mentioned about your club not being transparent and that they basically go to the AGM with their own agenda and questions and don't ask for any input from it's volunteers or anyone else for that matter?
Are you happy with that, especially knowing that is not the way to go about business?


Are these some of the issues you're concerned within the OFSC or is it strictly with the price of the permit?

OFSC usually calculates your future budget by your previously years hours/cost, which promotes clubs to falsify numbers to secure funds in the future. It's a stupid system as you should not be penalized for a poor winter.
When I was a club president years ago, I found the system not easy and cost effective as you couldn't shift money's around to where you needed it from locations you didn't need it. Example is our club had fuel for the groomer donated for the season, but couldn't shift the allocated fuel allotment to where we needed it such as paying off our groomer. That's just one example of many.

I believe the AGM meetings work more on a quick solution for that particular year allotment, thus leaving out the big picture solution. The easiest short term budget fix is to tally up last years budget and adjust permit prices to offset less sold. Kind of what we see in politics as some think raising taxes will fix the budget, which in turn fixes in a short period. On the other hand, dropping taxes and increasing spending ability builds a stronger economy as power in numbers spend away.
I think this is where it's at with the OFSC. Something has to give and a change has to be done.

Dan

Thanks for the reply Dano.

I know this Matrix thing has been brought up time and time again at the AGM but nothing seems to change as most say they can't come up with anything better?
Seems surprising but just being a permit buyer, I don't fully understand everything.

What's your thoughts on more Gov't interaction?
I am with Sevey, I think anything more is a bad idea, but with McSquinty now resigning maybe that will be different, doubt it, but maybe?

 

[Dano]

Namely, what is it that should be done about the club that is basically ripping off the OFSC by claiming false grooming hours? Does this type of behaviour not contribute to higher permit costs?

Also, you mentioned about your club not being transparent and that they basically go to the AGM with their own agenda and questions and don't ask for any input from it's volunteers or anyone else for that matter?
Are you happy with that, especially knowing that is not the way to go about business?


Are these some of the issues you're concerned within the OFSC or is it strictly with the price of the permit?

OFSC usually calculates your future budget by your previously years hours/cost, which promotes clubs to falsify numbers to secure funds in the future. It's a stupid system as you should not be penalized for a poor winter.
When I was a club president years ago, I found the system not easy and cost effective as you couldn't shift money's around to where you needed it from locations you didn't need it. Example is our club had fuel for the groomer donated for the season, but couldn't shift the allocated fuel allotment to where we needed it such as paying off our groomer. That's just one example of many.

I believe the AGM meetings work more on a quick solution for that particular year allotment, thus leaving out the big picture solution. The easiest short term budget fix is to tally up last years budget and adjust permit prices to offset less sold. Kind of what we see in politics as some think raising taxes will fix the budget, which in turn fixes in a short period. On the other hand, dropping taxes and increasing spending ability builds a stronger economy as power in numbers spend away.
I think this is where it's at with the OFSC. Something has to give and a change has to be done.

Dan

Thanks for the reply Dano.

I know this Matrix thing has been brought up time and time again at the AGM but nothing seems to change as most say they can't come up with anything better?
Seems surprising but just being a permit buyer, I don't fully understand everything.

What's your thoughts on more Gov't interaction?
I am with Sevey, I think anything more is a bad idea, but with McSquinty now resigning maybe that will be different, doubt it, but maybe?

I think allot of good ideas are brought up on how to introduce change, but I think where the problem is, is how to introduce it and to get through all the red tape. I always liked the idea of incorporating the OFSC cost into our validation stickers. Or like Quebec and have insurance incorporated in permit. But for some reason it gets turned down. Some like it and some don't, but You'll never please everyone. I also believe the gov't owes the federation road tax money that we have been paying for years as 35-40 cents per liter we put in our sleds are a road/gov't tax, but the gov't isn't exactly sinking money in our system. I work for the railway and we don't pay road tax to travel on the rails and we get discounts on fuel for it.
For me I have 5 sleds and only 3 are getting setup for trail. After basic insurance, validation tags and permits I'm over $1700 before the snow hits. That's just stickers/papers and is the most expensive in our country I believe.
I'm going to guess things are going to change soon possibly starting at the next AGM. The Gov't will never come to us, it's how we go to the Gov't and build a business case that could present change.
Dan