betheviper...
spindle camber/caster is an important factor since the ski responds to the suspensions geometry.
we'll agree to disagree on some of your points...sure the ski's angle would change from outside to inside....but every sled ....especially ours has body roll to offset this.
also....based on your suggestion that in the loose you lose 5"...take a sled with simmons on it....raise in the air....turn fully...now take a straight edge and run it under the spindle area and see what happens....in slop you loose the advantage of hardpack but at worst are even with a single carbide keeled ski of course without the keel benefits..
ultimate carving isnt the ski's strong suit...a widefooted feel is...darting can be totally tuned out of the ski and total predictability is still the best atribute...if you are looking for a sure footed confident inspiring feel...this ski is the ticket...
spindle camber/caster is an important factor since the ski responds to the suspensions geometry.
we'll agree to disagree on some of your points...sure the ski's angle would change from outside to inside....but every sled ....especially ours has body roll to offset this.
also....based on your suggestion that in the loose you lose 5"...take a sled with simmons on it....raise in the air....turn fully...now take a straight edge and run it under the spindle area and see what happens....in slop you loose the advantage of hardpack but at worst are even with a single carbide keeled ski of course without the keel benefits..
ultimate carving isnt the ski's strong suit...a widefooted feel is...darting can be totally tuned out of the ski and total predictability is still the best atribute...if you are looking for a sure footed confident inspiring feel...this ski is the ticket...
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
sj said:
I agree with you, especially at high speeds when the caster doesn't come into play much and body roll is dominant.
from the post above, im confused on what you agree with and don't.
i never said the ski was not a good straight handling ski, i pointed out its flaws that have been cured in the design of the arrow ski.
as far as body roll, simmons only makes that worse in a corner because it narrows up the stance at the worst time, when your turning.
please list off what you disagree with so i can explain or retract.
i never said the ski was not a good straight handling ski, i pointed out its flaws that have been cured in the design of the arrow ski.
as far as body roll, simmons only makes that worse in a corner because it narrows up the stance at the worst time, when your turning.
please list off what you disagree with so i can explain or retract.
sobfrogg
TY 4 Stroke Guru
C&A XT Pro's.
Tom, you have seen how I ride. I can run w/ the front of the group all day and not be worn out at the end of a 200 mile day. And still run another 50 miles for dinner.
Yes they have a higher steering effort at slow speeds. Thats the down side
What I like about em, Great handling in the corners! No darting at all. This sled goes where ever I point it. Very predictable for trail riding.
I like the fact I can have my weight transfer to almost full. I also have my limiter straps set 1 whole past stock. i like doing my wheelies when I want. Hang my #*$&@ over the side and no inside ski lift.
As for the boondockin. Keeps the front up on top of the snow. Carves and carves. I wil be putting them on my project rx1.
Best of all they are BLUEEEEEEE. And I got em from Richie Rich
Tom, you have seen how I ride. I can run w/ the front of the group all day and not be worn out at the end of a 200 mile day. And still run another 50 miles for dinner.
Yes they have a higher steering effort at slow speeds. Thats the down side
What I like about em, Great handling in the corners! No darting at all. This sled goes where ever I point it. Very predictable for trail riding.
I like the fact I can have my weight transfer to almost full. I also have my limiter straps set 1 whole past stock. i like doing my wheelies when I want. Hang my #*$&@ over the side and no inside ski lift.
As for the boondockin. Keeps the front up on top of the snow. Carves and carves. I wil be putting them on my project rx1.
Best of all they are BLUEEEEEEE. And I got em from Richie Rich
BETHEVIPER said:
I dont agree as to your opinion of narrowed stance in the turns...
I cant attest to the arrow ski but it appears to have a narrower stance than the simmons would....
I loved the old metal skis on our family's first snowmobile when I was a little gaffer. I do believe it was a 283 single banger. Why because it was our first snowmobile. The reason I ride today is because of the joy I had on that old used reliable yellow snomobile. I had to take them to shop class to get them welded up and while I was at it I welded on a new wear bar as well.
Yamaha Stock Skis "vis-a-vie" others used on 2005 RS Venture:
1. Yamaha stock skis:
Advantages: None noted.
Disadvantages:
* Push in corners.
* Does not provide suitable flotation in deep powder.
* Sled trenches out very easy by accumulating too much snow in the front belly area due to the lack of floatation.
* Sled "fish-tails" in 6-8" of fresh snow because the lack of proper floatation.
2. DOO Precision Skis with DOO 6" carbides also Studboy 6" Shaper Bar carbide replacements:
Advantages:
* Better floatation.
* Better handling.
Disadvantages:
* Proper mounting fit requires some time and effort.
* Low speed cornering a problem because they have a heavy feel.
* Dart severely on hard pack.
* Dual keel runner.
3. Yamaha Mountain skis with 4" "Gold Dually" dual keel runner manufactured in Canada:
Advantages:
* Superior floatation in deep powder.
* Handle better on the trail.
* Over-all less darting.
Disadvantages:
* Dig hard too hard in corners and provide an associated heavy feel.
* Loose trail performance.
4. Curve XS skis with recommended Studboy 6" Shaper Bar:
Advantanges:
* Best "all-around" ski ever have used.
* Unique parabolic shape designed for all conditions.
* Easy mounting instructions.
* Company provides a slightly larger ski rubber for Yamaha mounting that has a built in shim.
* Single runner ski.
* Well made ski.
* Extremely durable.
* Provides better floatation than stock and precision skis.
* Skis work nicely with the steering geometry of the sled. In powder turn conditions the skis and sled respond extremely well. The design of the ski provides a built in CG / weight tranfer change when turning. This function enhances the overall turning ability of the sled.
* Handle extremely well in all types of snow conditions; Powder, I have only ridden in snow up to 10" deep and look forward to trying them in deeper powder conditions. Groomed powder on the trail, these skis have put more life into my RS Venture. In loose granular "corn snow" and "mash potato slush" these skis provide positive control.
* Enhanced trail and cornering performance of my RS Venture. These skis have transformed the handling performance which has put "more fun" into this sled. The sled is now a more stable platform and has a more controlled trail cornering performance quality, in all conditions.
* Very predictable ski that instantly responds to rider input.
* Exceeds all our sledding requirements.
Disadvantages: None noted.
I also rode my brother's Attak with Curve XS skis. His Attak handles much better with much more positive control in all conditions. A "big advantage"!!!
1. Yamaha stock skis:
Advantages: None noted.
Disadvantages:
* Push in corners.
* Does not provide suitable flotation in deep powder.
* Sled trenches out very easy by accumulating too much snow in the front belly area due to the lack of floatation.
* Sled "fish-tails" in 6-8" of fresh snow because the lack of proper floatation.
2. DOO Precision Skis with DOO 6" carbides also Studboy 6" Shaper Bar carbide replacements:
Advantages:
* Better floatation.
* Better handling.
Disadvantages:
* Proper mounting fit requires some time and effort.
* Low speed cornering a problem because they have a heavy feel.
* Dart severely on hard pack.
* Dual keel runner.
3. Yamaha Mountain skis with 4" "Gold Dually" dual keel runner manufactured in Canada:
Advantages:
* Superior floatation in deep powder.
* Handle better on the trail.
* Over-all less darting.
Disadvantages:
* Dig hard too hard in corners and provide an associated heavy feel.
* Loose trail performance.
4. Curve XS skis with recommended Studboy 6" Shaper Bar:
Advantanges:
* Best "all-around" ski ever have used.
* Unique parabolic shape designed for all conditions.
* Easy mounting instructions.
* Company provides a slightly larger ski rubber for Yamaha mounting that has a built in shim.
* Single runner ski.
* Well made ski.
* Extremely durable.
* Provides better floatation than stock and precision skis.
* Skis work nicely with the steering geometry of the sled. In powder turn conditions the skis and sled respond extremely well. The design of the ski provides a built in CG / weight tranfer change when turning. This function enhances the overall turning ability of the sled.
* Handle extremely well in all types of snow conditions; Powder, I have only ridden in snow up to 10" deep and look forward to trying them in deeper powder conditions. Groomed powder on the trail, these skis have put more life into my RS Venture. In loose granular "corn snow" and "mash potato slush" these skis provide positive control.
* Enhanced trail and cornering performance of my RS Venture. These skis have transformed the handling performance which has put "more fun" into this sled. The sled is now a more stable platform and has a more controlled trail cornering performance quality, in all conditions.
* Very predictable ski that instantly responds to rider input.
* Exceeds all our sledding requirements.
Disadvantages: None noted.
I also rode my brother's Attak with Curve XS skis. His Attak handles much better with much more positive control in all conditions. A "big advantage"!!!
nice post hondo
you'd think with all those miles...you would have tried even more !
you'd think with all those miles...you would have tried even more !
"I dont agree as to your opinion of narrowed stance in the turns"
I will try to steer you in my direction. Set your sled on the ground and turn it. Now look under the sled. You may need someone to hold the bars because of another problem with these skis I'll address later. The sled is now setting on two carbides. If you turn left, the rh inner and lh outer carbide will be the only thing touching the ground. This keeps the center ski stance the same as stock in therory. In a lh corner the weight is shifted to the right ski so the left ski does very little work. The ski doing the work is the right hand ski, the one with only the inner carbide touching. That carbide is about 2 1/2 inches closer to the center of the sled than the original and 5inches closer than the outside carbide that only becomes useful going straight.
"I cant attest to the arrow ski but it appears to have a narrower stance than the simmons would"
The ski has a wider stance in a corner than the simmons because it only narrows up the sled by 1in.
The other effect of having the carbides to the outside is that you are using the sleds handlebars to lift the sled. That is why on a sled with simmons or excalibers, or percisions the sled wants to go straight so well. When you turn the sled the front end will lift. This is also some of the cause of the slow speed steering effort issue with this syle ski.
in short, kimpex, please make these skis wider and there will be nothing better out there
I will try to steer you in my direction. Set your sled on the ground and turn it. Now look under the sled. You may need someone to hold the bars because of another problem with these skis I'll address later. The sled is now setting on two carbides. If you turn left, the rh inner and lh outer carbide will be the only thing touching the ground. This keeps the center ski stance the same as stock in therory. In a lh corner the weight is shifted to the right ski so the left ski does very little work. The ski doing the work is the right hand ski, the one with only the inner carbide touching. That carbide is about 2 1/2 inches closer to the center of the sled than the original and 5inches closer than the outside carbide that only becomes useful going straight.
"I cant attest to the arrow ski but it appears to have a narrower stance than the simmons would"
The ski has a wider stance in a corner than the simmons because it only narrows up the sled by 1in.
The other effect of having the carbides to the outside is that you are using the sleds handlebars to lift the sled. That is why on a sled with simmons or excalibers, or percisions the sled wants to go straight so well. When you turn the sled the front end will lift. This is also some of the cause of the slow speed steering effort issue with this syle ski.
in short, kimpex, please make these skis wider and there will be nothing better out there
Thanks sj,
Once I would find something better I would ride what I had until I ran across a better idea, or better product.
Reality, Gas money was more important at the time.
Looking back, I wish I had found a product like Curve XS three years ago!
Never-the-less, I have a pair now and am very glad I found them.
They are a superb ski!
Once I would find something better I would ride what I had until I ran across a better idea, or better product.
Reality, Gas money was more important at the time.
Looking back, I wish I had found a product like Curve XS three years ago!
Never-the-less, I have a pair now and am very glad I found them.
They are a superb ski!
BETHEVIPER said:
about the only thing we agree on regarding the simmons is the straight tracking...sure any of the dual carbide ski's can have a heavy slow speed feel...but a lot of that is tuned out...and yes if the terrain was totally flat and the sleds attitude remained the same as it sits on the ground at stand still your carbide analogy would be correct...however...this isnt whats happening in reality..
the sled will have body roll of some sort and load the outboard ski and the point you make of whats touching is now gone...the skis is fully planted...even in the most extreme ski lift...I've taken a curve on the outboard carbide bite at high spped (shapers are great for this) on any inside ski which is now unloaded....again...whatever part of the ski and or carbide can grab any terrain will do so ...and the simmons inside carbide does..
many have looked at the skis attitude and deduced what you are saying and if we were running on a an oval asphalt flat race track what you point out would be accurate....but we are of varying terrain....even within a couple square feet the terrain will vary greatly...
so in short...to me these skis are the "knuckle ball" of baseball....you look at it and say it shouldnt work but it does...and yes...they have their negatives..or compromises...not for the most aggressive point and shoot...
Bpatch50
Expert
pilots
It's amazing how many people on this thread like pilots and precisions. I have more time on Doo's then Yami's and I've never ridden on a ski that darts as bad as the precision (pilots aren't any better and eat carbides). If you're gonna spend money on skis do it right the first time and get a good set of aftermarkets. Theres a reason so many Doo riders buy aftermarket skis.
It's amazing how many people on this thread like pilots and precisions. I have more time on Doo's then Yami's and I've never ridden on a ski that darts as bad as the precision (pilots aren't any better and eat carbides). If you're gonna spend money on skis do it right the first time and get a good set of aftermarkets. Theres a reason so many Doo riders buy aftermarket skis.
on another note,
here are some real world pictures of the bottom of the magic ski.
you can see what i did to get the carbide down a little so they would steer easier as well as give more bite in the corner. I used a piece of 1/8 lexan as a spacer between the two center studs. i bent the carbide to match so that when tightened the carbide itself would end up straight so that it would wear even. I then installed the ski with spacers so that just a tiny bit of the front of the carbide was off the ground with my weight on the sled.
notice the bevel on the carbide, this is after i ground it back.
Attachments
BTV,
Sorry to hear about your difficulties.
I doo know when I was running the "Precisions" (an oxymoron in terminology) I had to grind the Doo ski rubber 1/4" higher than the front rubber in order get enough rear bite in the carbides. Without the shim the carbides would run on the front of the carbides ("ski nose low").
The ski rubber with built in shim provided by Curve Industries provided ample rear bite on my sled. The front carbide angle was up and elevated off the floor between 1/8th" and 1/16th".
Did you use the Curve Industries ski rubber?
Was your front sled frame ever bent?
Could these be factors?
Also, each type-model-series sled may-or-may-not require some "tweaking".
For me, after three years of not having a real good ski set up, I now happen to be real "happy camper" with the set up I have finally found.
All the best!
Sorry to hear about your difficulties.
I doo know when I was running the "Precisions" (an oxymoron in terminology) I had to grind the Doo ski rubber 1/4" higher than the front rubber in order get enough rear bite in the carbides. Without the shim the carbides would run on the front of the carbides ("ski nose low").
The ski rubber with built in shim provided by Curve Industries provided ample rear bite on my sled. The front carbide angle was up and elevated off the floor between 1/8th" and 1/16th".
Did you use the Curve Industries ski rubber?
Was your front sled frame ever bent?
Could these be factors?
Also, each type-model-series sled may-or-may-not require some "tweaking".
For me, after three years of not having a real good ski set up, I now happen to be real "happy camper" with the set up I have finally found.
All the best!
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
BETHEVIPER said:
I actually don't like the idea of simmons skis and I doubt I would like riding a sled with them installed.
The ski I am most interested in is the Curve XS, with a close second the Arrow.
However, what I was disagreeing with (or agreeing with - in sj's case) is your statement that simmons skis produce a narrower footprint during a high speed corner and make the sled easier to roll.
Consider these factors:
- When you travel around a corner at high speed you do not turn the skis very sharply. Even at 40 mph, the amount you need to turn the skis to corner at the limit of traction is not very much at all.
- When you travel around a corner near the sled's maximum limit of performance, the sled really wants to roll over. Because of this, the entire sled rolls to some extent due to the give in the suspension.
- The time when you really need some aditional anti-roll control is when you already have the inside ski up in the air. Again, this puts more pressure on the outside of the outer ski.
All of these factors put a greater load on the outside of the outer ski when you are really pushing the sled hard going around a corner and when you really need additional roll control.
As I said before, I still really don't like the concept. It will help to reduce the sled's ability to roll over in a high speed turn, but I don't see them working all that well as an aggressive high performance ski.
Both the Arrow and the Curve XS are interesting to me, but right now I'm leaning towards the Curve XS (if I do actually change my skis again next year).
Similar threads
