LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
Wow. You clearly just have no idea what you're talking about. If you DON'T move the front arm, then you're NOT RELOCATING. The hartman kit DOES move the front arm. THATS WHY THE TRACK DOESN'T FOLLOW THE FRONT ARM!
If you want it to work, you need to leave the front arm WHERE IT IS, move the back arm back by the length of the extension, and EXTEND BOTH arms by the amount that you would otherwise have moved them back by.
Alternatively, if you LEAVE the front arm where it is, extend the rails, and move the upper-back wheels back by an equal length as the extension, THEN it will work fine.
See the attached picture.
Look at the triangles that are filled in with green.
When you compress the suspension, the motion of the rails follows the radius of the arms, which is the same as the lengths of lines d-A and b-C in the diagram of the relocated suspension. What do you think happens to lines D-A and B-C when that happens? Note that the lengths of d-A and b-C are fixed by being parallel to the suspension arms.
Don't try to keep arguing as you've already forced me to destroy all of your credibility.
If you want it to work, you need to leave the front arm WHERE IT IS, move the back arm back by the length of the extension, and EXTEND BOTH arms by the amount that you would otherwise have moved them back by.
Alternatively, if you LEAVE the front arm where it is, extend the rails, and move the upper-back wheels back by an equal length as the extension, THEN it will work fine.
See the attached picture.
Look at the triangles that are filled in with green.
When you compress the suspension, the motion of the rails follows the radius of the arms, which is the same as the lengths of lines d-A and b-C in the diagram of the relocated suspension. What do you think happens to lines D-A and B-C when that happens? Note that the lengths of d-A and b-C are fixed by being parallel to the suspension arms.
Don't try to keep arguing as you've already forced me to destroy all of your credibility.
Attachments
LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
Note: if you EXTEND the front arm by the distance between its relocated mount point and point "d", and extend the back arm by the same amount, and mount the FRONT arm at points "d" and move the back arm upper mount BACK by the length of the extension and the lower arm back by (the length of the extension + the amount that the arms were extended by), then the problem goes away.
I quess i was really lucky then cause I just finished sled #3 with 4 inch set back, and all have worked just fine. I must be the lucky one. Maxdlx
Don't try to keep arguing as you've already forced me to destroy all of your credibility.
I highly doubt you have done anything to my credibility. I have rode with fellow Tyer's on these sleds and they have worked flawlessly. I however am open minded enough to look at it as if someone else tried it and it didn't work maybe they made a bad measurement or did someting wrong. you just attack someone who doesn't think the same way you do. You have doen it in other posts, on numerous occations. I have done it, I have rode with others who have done it. it worked, yet I am uncreditable, and non-knowing. I will never post on another thread you reply to so as you don't ruin my "CREDIBILITY" I'll let everyone go back through past threads and see your one sidded opinion on everything, and let them make there own decision.
I highly doubt you have done anything to my credibility. I have rode with fellow Tyer's on these sleds and they have worked flawlessly. I however am open minded enough to look at it as if someone else tried it and it didn't work maybe they made a bad measurement or did someting wrong. you just attack someone who doesn't think the same way you do. You have doen it in other posts, on numerous occations. I have done it, I have rode with others who have done it. it worked, yet I am uncreditable, and non-knowing. I will never post on another thread you reply to so as you don't ruin my "CREDIBILITY" I'll let everyone go back through past threads and see your one sidded opinion on everything, and let them make there own decision.
LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
There's your next mistake.
FACT is not the same as OPINION. YOU have an OPINION that is contrary to FACT, therefore your OPINION is WRONG.
Simple logic... if you believe something that is PROVABLY IMPOSSIBLE, then you are WRONG.
If your setbacks are *working*, it means two things;
1) you are running the track too loose to make space for the stretch. The side effect of this is that the track can call off the rails.
2) When the suspension compresses, the track becomes TOO TIGHT, which means excessive stress on all suspension components, and will ultimately result in component failures.
FACT is not the same as OPINION. YOU have an OPINION that is contrary to FACT, therefore your OPINION is WRONG.
Simple logic... if you believe something that is PROVABLY IMPOSSIBLE, then you are WRONG.
If your setbacks are *working*, it means two things;
1) you are running the track too loose to make space for the stretch. The side effect of this is that the track can call off the rails.
2) When the suspension compresses, the track becomes TOO TIGHT, which means excessive stress on all suspension components, and will ultimately result in component failures.
Fact
I run my track just outside of Yamaha specs which is no way to loose
Fact I can compress the skid completely and have within 1/8 inch the same sag as I do in free hang.
Once again just because it doesn't work for you everyone else is wrong.
How many set backs have you tried or done. I have done 3 of my on 2 4 inch and one 2.5. they all worked just fine.
I run my track just outside of Yamaha specs which is no way to loose
Fact I can compress the skid completely and have within 1/8 inch the same sag as I do in free hang.
Once again just because it doesn't work for you everyone else is wrong.
How many set backs have you tried or done. I have done 3 of my on 2 4 inch and one 2.5. they all worked just fine.
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Fact is if you both dont relax there will be some recourse!!
yamadoo
Yamadoo is a snowmobile ' aholic'.
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I was betting on Convert but Mr SLed was first. Yamadoo
yamadoo said:
Thats because I was on the road coming back from the lake!
Come on guys scientifically LB's approach is no doubt accurate but in the real world maybe what Maxdlx is doing works just fine too. Lets try not to be so critical of each other. Think out of the box for a bit LB , this obviously has worked for a number of sleds even if it does add a little more stress to some parts. Thank god Yamaha builds em tough
rxrider
Jan-Ove Pedersen
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I guess snow is gone, it heats guys up from time to time.
Interesting debate however. I think both have proven their points, and both approaches actually works IMO
I have one question. If you leave the skid where it is and add a 136" or 144" rail extension, what will happen to the geometry and track tension?
Jan-Ove
rxrider
Interesting debate however. I think both have proven their points, and both approaches actually works IMO
I have one question. If you leave the skid where it is and add a 136" or 144" rail extension, what will happen to the geometry and track tension?
Jan-Ove
rxrider
While reasoning about apparent contradictions for one's own perspective, partisans often show activations throughout the orbital frontal cortex, indicating emotional processing and presumably emotion regulation strategies. Also, there are commonly activations in areas of the brain associated with the experience of unpleasant emotions, the processing of emotion and conflict, and judgments of forgiveness and moral accountability.
Notably absent are any increases in activation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain most associated with reasoning (as well as conscious efforts to suppress emotion). This might suggest that the emotion-driven processes that lead to biased judgments likely occur outside of awareness, and are distinct from normal reasoning processes when emotion is not so heavily engaged . . .
What this observation also suggests is: it is not really anyone's fault that one feels so compelled to justify one's own opinion. The degree of this tendency generally increases inversely to the amount of fact that one's opinion is originally based upon . . .
One is generally best served revisiting the facts, upon which the basis of one's understanding of the issue at hand resides, whenever emotion becomes paramount.
I found the technical basis for the reasoning mentioned in this post quite interesting, but not completely without flaws. I hope to noodle on it a bit further.
I hope that we can all put any emotions aside and discuss this as an interesting technical puzzle.
Notably absent are any increases in activation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain most associated with reasoning (as well as conscious efforts to suppress emotion). This might suggest that the emotion-driven processes that lead to biased judgments likely occur outside of awareness, and are distinct from normal reasoning processes when emotion is not so heavily engaged . . .
What this observation also suggests is: it is not really anyone's fault that one feels so compelled to justify one's own opinion. The degree of this tendency generally increases inversely to the amount of fact that one's opinion is originally based upon . . .
One is generally best served revisiting the facts, upon which the basis of one's understanding of the issue at hand resides, whenever emotion becomes paramount.
I found the technical basis for the reasoning mentioned in this post quite interesting, but not completely without flaws. I hope to noodle on it a bit further.
I hope that we can all put any emotions aside and discuss this as an interesting technical puzzle.
rxrider
Jan-Ove Pedersen
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HAHAHA - Ding - you been studying psycology? Interesting observations and comments tho. Now my brain is going out of geometry and parallellograms and into circles from reading your comment LOL, nice.
It was my minor . . .
ahicks
TY 4 Stroke Master
<<<I have one question. If you leave the skid where it is and add a 136" or 144" rail extension, what will happen to the geometry and track tension? >>>
I've never moved a suspension back, but after digesting LB's logic, I have to agree - in theory anyway. My thought is that extending the skid might have the opposite effect of moving the suspension back - as now, the rear leg of the parallelogram is being lengthened compared to what it was without the extension? I have done that, and there were no negatives experienced - as far as track tension anyway. I just didn't like the way it handled anymore.
The extra traction and marginally better ride didn't offset the handling issues enough for me. Top end didn't change all that much, and I don't need the extra flotation that may be offered in the areas I ride in the most. Just me.
I've never moved a suspension back, but after digesting LB's logic, I have to agree - in theory anyway. My thought is that extending the skid might have the opposite effect of moving the suspension back - as now, the rear leg of the parallelogram is being lengthened compared to what it was without the extension? I have done that, and there were no negatives experienced - as far as track tension anyway. I just didn't like the way it handled anymore.
The extra traction and marginally better ride didn't offset the handling issues enough for me. Top end didn't change all that much, and I don't need the extra flotation that may be offered in the areas I ride in the most. Just me.
kinger
VIP Member
This is the theory of practical absorbtion of theory based thinking. ie yes in theory what Lb is saying is correct, in the practical application its not off enough to notice a difference. Your both right!
