ADAPT Verses TAPP

[Turboflash]

Adapt Roller Conversion Kit (ARC)

Transform your Adapt Primary Clutch into a full slider clutch!

ibexx.com

Wonder if this would help with buttons? I don't know anyone that's tried this on a adapt. Not sure if its a terrible idea or great idea?

Yes it would because there would no buttons.
However, for me, the issue I see with this kit is in order for it to even work, there has to some minimal clearance between the roller and the towers. The roller can't be touching both sides at once. Therefore, the spider cannot be tight in the towers like it is with good buttons. That means the spider is moving back and forth between the accelerate side and the decel side. That also means while that is going on since your weights are in contact with the rollers which are mounted to spider, the spider movement is rocking the weight back and forth on their pins which of course is wearing out the weight bushings. At minimum, it'll make them oblong. Bad deal. I always like my spider tight in between towers to keep weight straight on roller.
I guess I'd have to hear from someone who tried this on 300+ HP before I'd buy in. For now, I'm sticking with buttons to make sure the spider stays tight.

 

[jonlafon1]

Yes it would because there would no buttons.
However, for me, the issue I see with this kit is in order for it to even work, there has to some minimal clearance between the roller and the towers. The roller can't be touching both sides at once. Therefore, the spider cannot be tight in the towers like it is with good buttons. That means the spider is moving back and forth between the accelerate side and the decel side. That also means while that is going on since your weights are in contact with the rollers which are mounted to spider, the spider movement is rocking the weight back and forth on their pins which of course is wearing out the weight bushings. At minimum, it'll make them oblong. Bad deal. I always like my spider tight in between towers to keep weight straight on roller.
I guess I'd have to hear from someone who tried this on 300+ HP before I'd buy in. For now, I'm sticking with buttons to make sure the spider stays tight.

Yes I was thinking along the same lines. There must be some play between the towers but not to much. AND agree can not be touching both sides same time. Big hp machines I would not, but I’m going to try them on the 600. I pissed away a hundred on other things. Why not I have nor rode much at all this year. I will report if and when we have winter again.

 

[KnappAttack]

Yes it would because there would no buttons.
However, for me, the issue I see with this kit is in order for it to even work, there has to some minimal clearance between the roller and the towers. The roller can't be touching both sides at once. Therefore, the spider cannot be tight in the towers like it is with good buttons. That means the spider is moving back and forth between the accelerate side and the decel side. That also means while that is going on since your weights are in contact with the rollers which are mounted to spider, the spider movement is rocking the weight back and forth on their pins which of course is wearing out the weight bushings. At minimum, it'll make them oblong. Bad deal. I always like my spider tight in between towers to keep weight straight on roller.
I guess I'd have to hear from someone who tried this on 300+ HP before I'd buy in. For now, I'm sticking with buttons to make sure the spider stays tight.

Also a drawback to no buttons and the clearance needed for the rollers, is the clutch is going to be very noisy on a 998 or any three cylinder four-stroke.

I know TAPP also has a new roller spider for its clutch. I've ran roller spiders before, and although I could never find any performance advantages in the spider on acceleration or track HP where it counts, I believe there could be a better backshift possibility. I however would not use the rollers over the buttons myself. If I ordered a new TAPP even today, I would order it with a button spider, not the roller spider.

Are the rollers going to be a gain on the Adapt? Maybe - because the buttons are on a smaller centerline, there very well could, because there is way more pressure on the buttons at that smaller centerline position. There is more friction and binding occurring with buttons on that smaller circle.

Just know that on the 998, that clutch will get noisy with rollers and could very well fail and blow up due to the constant hammering across that clearance needed for the rollers to work. It will be constant tapping on the towers with every power pulse and combustion event. It's a boat load of harmonics and abuse on that poor cast aluminum clutch on a 998!!!

 

[Turboflash]

Also a drawback to no buttons and the clearance needed for the rollers, is the clutch is going to be very noisy on a 998 or any three cylinder four-stroke.

I know TAPP also has a new roller spider for its clutch. I've ran roller spiders before, and although I could never find any performance advantages in the spider on acceleration or track HP where it counts, I believe there could be a better backshift possibility. I however would not use the rollers over the buttons myself. If I ordered a new TAPP even today, I would order it with a button spider, not the roller spider.

Are the rollers going to be a gain on the Adapt? Maybe - because the buttons are on a smaller centerline, there very well could, because there is way more pressure on the buttons at that smaller centerline position. There is more friction and binding occurring with buttons on that smaller circle.

Just know that on the 998, that clutch will get noisy with rollers and could very well fail and blow up due to the constant hammering across that clearance needed for the rollers to work. It will be constant tapping on the towers with every power pulse and combustion event. It's a boat load of harmonics and abuse on that poor cast aluminum clutch on a 998!!!

If you watch this video, to me it looks like the centerlines are al.ost identical. The kit takes out the little holder for buttons and replaces it with roller.
I still don't want my spider loose.

 

[Turboflash]

If the play in the spider isn't enough, how long does roller last; how long does bushing in roller last,; how long does pin that mounts the roller last, etc?
Somebody try it and let us know.

 

[74Nitro]

Yes it would because there would no buttons.
However, for me, the issue I see with this kit is in order for it to even work, there has to some minimal clearance between the roller and the towers. The roller can't be touching both sides at once. Therefore, the spider cannot be tight in the towers like it is with good buttons. That means the spider is moving back and forth between the accelerate side and the decel side. That also means while that is going on since your weights are in contact with the rollers which are mounted to spider, the spider movement is rocking the weight back and forth on their pins which of course is wearing out the weight bushings. At minimum, it'll make them oblong. Bad deal. I always like my spider tight in between towers to keep weight straight on roller.
I guess I'd have to hear from someone who tried this on 300+ HP before I'd buy in. For now, I'm sticking with buttons to make sure the spider stays tight.

Yes, and if the clearance is too much we all know what they sound like.

 

[KnappAttack]

If you watch this video, to me it looks like the centerlines are al.ost identical. The kit takes out the little holder for buttons and replaces it with roller.
I still don't want my spider loose.

I'm not talking about the roller kit vs. buttons.

When I talk about a reduced centerline on the Adapt, I'm comparing it to a TEAM, TAPP, Yamaha, or even a Polaris Primary. The Adapt reduced the centerline of where the buttons run on the towers, which is not a good thing for button life or power transmission. Lower centerlines increases the pressure put on the buttons tremendously. The reason they keep moving the buttons outwards away from the centerline all these years was for increased efficiency and longer life for the buttons. The further out they sit from centerline takes the pressure of of them and makes for better efficiency. I believe these young engineers may have lost sight of this fact.... They should have known that reducing the button centerline would make life harder for the buttons and make for more sliding pressure and friction on them. I shrugged my shoulders when I notice this, but they must think that reduced mass means more to them over button life and clutch efficiency.

 

[earthling]

you mean the distance from the center of the clutch itself?

 

[74Nitro]

The Doo P-drive has six rollers, three for each direction of pressure. They also designed them with angles so that centrifugal force will keep them snug enough to prevent noise and play. Shimming not necessary.
Has anyone ever tried one? Maybe the shaft isn't 30mm, I never measured yet.

 

[earthling]

Also a drawback to no buttons and the clearance needed for the rollers, is the clutch is going to be very noisy on a 998 or any three cylinder four-stroke.

I know TAPP also has a new roller spider for its clutch. I've ran roller spiders before, and although I could never find any performance advantages in the spider on acceleration or track HP where it counts, I believe there could be a better backshift possibility. I however would not use the rollers over the buttons myself. If I ordered a new TAPP even today, I would order it with a button spider, not the roller spider.

Are the rollers going to be a gain on the Adapt? Maybe - because the buttons are on a smaller centerline, there very well could, because there is way more pressure on the buttons at that smaller centerline position. There is more friction and binding occurring with buttons on that smaller circle.

Just know that on the 998, that clutch will get noisy with rollers and could very well fail and blow up due to the constant hammering across that clearance needed for the rollers to work. It will be constant tapping on the towers with every power pulse and combustion event. It's a boat load of harmonics and abuse on that poor cast aluminum clutch on a 998!!!

By centerline you mean measurement from the buttons to the center of axial rotation (center of the clutch)?

Yes, there is more pressure/friction there but materials these days are capable of very high pressures without loss of friction. I suspect that the button will be better than roller for all the reasons mentioned (noise, excess wear due to the gap that has to exist, etc) . The large roller is just another bushing/bearing. In order to act as a roller it has to have a gap between it and the mating surface on the OD of the roller, and any play between the ID of the roller and the diameter of the pin it sits on means all forces are now concentrated at that tangent where they meet. Dissimilar materials means different rates of contraction/expansion with temperature, etc.. I think the buttons may actually perform better.

 

[Fleecer]

I'm reading these posts be have a question. Some folks claim the Adapt is 4mph faster than the Team. Some folks claim the power block clutch is 4mph faster than the Adapt.

Is my math correct in assuming the power block clutch is 8 mph faster than the Team? I could sure use more speed......so thought I'd ask.

 

[KnappAttack]

I'm reading these posts be have a question. Some folks claim the Adapt is 4mph faster than the Team. Some folks claim the power block clutch is 4mph faster than the Adapt.

Is my math correct in assuming the power block clutch is 8 mph faster than the Team? I could sure use more speed......so thought I'd ask.

Try it and see Glenn, I found the PB80 to be 5 MPH faster and accelerate harder than any any setup I tried in Doos TRA on my 1200 NA sleds. Is it going to be 8 miles an hour faster than a team? I’d say no way. But I don’t doubt that you’d see 5 to 6 miles an hour faster, depending upon set ups.

I believe the cheap old PB80 to be more efficient at shifting the belt than a lot of clutches out there. Why? Some clutches and clutch setups use energy and RPM to try and explode the clutch outward vs using the energy to shift the belt. The PB80 uses its energy to shift the belt, it’s a simple old design, but works very well this way. The sliding pucks also act as the spider and buttons combined. You would not think that it would work well once you see it apart. But the fact of the matter is it performs and works very well. It lays down track horsepower every bit as good as a Tapp or even better actually, that’s why precision sports used it on all its 300 hp turbo 1200s at one point. They did, however, build a beefed up, billet spring cut for it or on those big horsepower levels. They found it to put down more track horsepower than all the other clutches.

The drawback is it runs warm because it doesn’t dissipate heat well with its smooth steel cover, the air does not move around it and cool like a Team or a Yamaha primary does. Another drawback is it’s weak stock spring cup that likes to crack and break over time. We broke a few on the 1200s. When they break, it is typically not catastrophic, and will not take the rest of the clutch with it, when it happens, you know it because you get a vibration that you have to stop the machine, many guys keep riding on this way and tear the clutch up internally, if you stop the engine right away, no other damage is done

 

[KnappAttack]

By centerline you mean measurement from the buttons to the center of axial rotation (center of the clutch)?

Yes, there is more pressure/friction there but materials these days are capable of very high pressures without loss of friction. I suspect that the button will be better than roller for all the reasons mentioned (noise, excess wear due to the gap that has to exist, etc) . The large roller is just another bushing/bearing. In order to act as a roller it has to have a gap between it and the mating surface on the OD of hte roller, and any play between the ID of the roller and the diameter of the pin it sits on means all forces are now concentrated at that tangent where they meet. Dissimilar materials means different rates of contraction/expansion with temperature, etc.. I think the buttons may actually perform better.

Yes, just look at where the button center line is compared to the center of the clutch, it is much closer to the center of the clutch versus any other clutch out there.

Over the years, the engineers have found better efficiency, moving the buttons out as far as they can on the clutch for power, transfer and clutch efficiency.

For the reason of throttle response, they decided to move the mass inward as much as they can. Throttle response is not nearly as important as clutch efficiency, so I’m not sure that this was the right move in my opinion. People are now finding that the buttons don’t last long on the adapt and it’s because of this reason.

Throttle response does not lead to quick ET’s or fast speeds. Quite the opposite actually, when a clutch shift quickly versus engine rpm going up quickly, the machine accelerates harder and quicker, but everybody has it in their heads that they have to be Joe snow cross racer bliping the throttle and needing a instantaneous revie sound at the gas pumps.

 

[earthling]

Yes, just look at where the button center line is compared to the center of the clutch, it is much closer to the center of the clutch versus any other clutch out there.

Over the years, the engineers have found better efficiency, moving the buttons out as far as they can on the clutch for power, transfer and clutch efficiency.

For the reason of throttle response, they decided to move the mass inward as much as they can. Throttle response is not nearly as important as clutch efficiency, so I’m not sure that this was the right move in my opinion. People are now finding that the buttons don’t last long on the adapt and it’s because of this reason.

Throttle response does not lead to quickie tease or fast speeds. Quite the opposite actually, when a clutch shift quickly versus engine rpm, going up quickly, the machine accelerates harder and quicker, but everybody has it in their heads that they have to be Joe snow cross racer bliping the throttle and needing a instantaneous revie sound at the gas pumps.

Oh, I agree, I hadn't really looked at the adapt until you pointed it out but yes, the forces would increase substantially. There is also a secondary effect which is that the force required to move the clutch will no longer be linear. Gained a reduction in inertia to get the clutch spinning, may have lost some efficiency to get the arms moving efficiently and linearly throughout the RPM range..

 

[jonlafon1]

If the play in the spider isn't enough, how long does roller last; how long does bushing in roller last,; how long does pin that mounts the roller last, etc?
Somebody try it and let us know.

10/4.

Try it and see Glenn, I found the PB80 to be 5 MPH faster and accelerate harder than any any setup I tried in Doos TRA on my 1200 NA sleds. Is it going to be 8 miles an hour faster than a team? I’d say no way. But I don’t doubt that you’d see 5 to 6 miles an hour faster, depending upon set ups.

I believe the cheap old PB80 to be more efficient at shifting the belt than a lot of clutches out there. Why? Some clutches and clutch setups use energy and RPM to try and explode the clutch outward vs using the energy to shift the belt. The PB80 uses its energy to shift the belt, it’s a simple old design, but works very well this way. I was sliding pucks also act as the spider and buttons combined. You would not think that it would work well once you see it apart. But the fact of the matter is it performs and works very well. It lays down track horsepower every bit as good as a Tapp or even better actually, that’s why precision sports used it on all its 300 hp turbo 1200s at one point. They did, however, build a beefed up, billet spring cut for it or on those big horsepower levels. They found it to put down more track horsepower than all the other clutches.

The drawback is it runs warm because it doesn’t dissipate heat well with it smooth, steel cover, the air does not move around it like a team or a Yamaha primary does. Another drawback is it’s weak stock spring cup that likes to crack and break over time. We broke a few on the 1200s. When they break, it is typically not catastrophic, and will not take the rest of the clutch with it, when it happens, you know it because you get a vibration that you have to stop the machine, many guys keep riding on this way and tear the clutch up internally, if you stop the engine right away, no other damage is done

great info here Mike. I LIKE reading your post about clutching. No BS.