Ted Jannetty
TY 4 Stroke God
JDMCRX said:Dyno chart if anyone wants to see
Explain how the fuel lb/hr are so low?
Rule of thumb it takes a .5 lb/hr fuel to make 1 hp, 126 x 2 = 252 hp
I would expect to see more like 265 lb/hr of fuel.
Why don't you put boost in the CFM column on your dyno.
adrenalator8
Extreme
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Ted Jannetty said:JDMCRX said:Dyno chart if anyone wants to see
Explain how the fuel lb/hr are so low?
Rule of thumb it takes a .5 lb/hr fuel to make 1 hp, 126 x 2 = 252 hp
I would expect to see more like 265 lb/hr of fuel.
Why don't you put boost in the CFM column on your dyno.
I didn't graph fuel in these last runs so those # aren't correct.
So disregard them.
And as for air flow ,etc when tuning I much prefer on a 4 stroke to use the wide band O2 and a knock sensor.
air /fuel ratios don't lie!
Cliff Yeatman
JDMCRX
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Whats wrong with a 11.5-11.8 AF for forced induction ap. this is were i set my car. Car i find is a bit more risky due to the fact hotter air temps, Bad tank of gas boom.
I always tune with WB and a EGT gauge. But on these sleds its not easy to play with timing . Set your af and watch your EGTs and play around with timing and see what kind of egts u get but best tuning is out of a wideband. We have gone threw this problem with tunning with WB and EGT gauge.
I always tune with WB and a EGT gauge. But on these sleds its not easy to play with timing . Set your af and watch your EGTs and play around with timing and see what kind of egts u get but best tuning is out of a wideband. We have gone threw this problem with tunning with WB and EGT gauge.
KnappAttack
24X ISR World Drag Racing Champion
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11.9 AF is what I'm seeing on the dyno sheet. That is certainly not rich for a big boost engine of this type. If any thing it is a bit lean. Now I see why, "Large meth jets" means it running METHANOL ALCOHOL for fuel. I believe I asked the fuel question earlier. Now it makes sense!
srxguy
Expert
OH..I thought this was on gas also....KnappAttack said:
Gasoline - Gasoline is what most of our cars came setup so it's usually what we stick with. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons. The petroleum distillate fraction termed "gasoline" contains mostly saturated hydrocarbons usually with a chemical formula of C8H18. The air fuel ratio, A/F Ratio, for complete combustion is 14.7:1, stoichiometric. The A/F ratio for maximum power is approximately 12.5:1 - 12.8:1. This means that our engine at max power, 12.8:1, consumes 12.8 pounds of air for 1 pound of fuel. Gasoline has approximately 18,400 BTU/lb . Using the air flow calculator with the default inputs we get our 355 SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and consumes 2.89 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using gasoline our engine is producing 53,176 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.
Alcohol (Methanol) - Alcohol is usually used in the form of Methyl alcohol or methanol. CH3OH is the chemical formula. Methanol burns at a much richer mixture than gasoline does, between 5.0:1 - 6.0:1. That's 5 lbs of air to one pound of fuel. Methanol has approximately 9,500 BTU/lb. Using our 355, example above, SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and now at 6.0:1 ratio for Methanol is 7.11 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using Methanol fuel our engine is producing 67,545 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.
Nitromethane - is a fuel that is used mostly in specialized drag racing classes, "nitro funny cars" and "top fuel". Nitromethane's chemical formula is CH3NO2. The oxygen in nitromethane's molecular structure means that nitromethane does not need as much atmospheric oxygen to burn, part of the oxygen needed to burn nitromethane is carried in the fuel itself. Typical A/F ratio for nitromethane is 1.7:1 and nitromethane has an energy content of 5,000 BTU/lb. Using our 355, example above, SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and now at 1.7:1 ratio for nitromethane is 25.08 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using Nitromethane fuel our engine is producing 125,412 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.
Fuel Engine Air Flow (cfm) lbs of air (lbs) A/F Ratio Pounds of Fuel (lbs) Energy Content of Fuel (BTU/lb) Total Thermal Energy (BTU)
Gasoline ---------- 567.53 -- 42.64 -- 12.8:1 -- 2.89 -- 18,500 -- 53,176
Methanol --------- 567.53 -- 42.64 -- 6.0:1 -- 7.11 -- 9,500 -- 67,545
Nitromethane --- 567.53 -- 42.64 -- 1.7:1 -- 25.08 -- 5,000 -- 125,412
Summary - As you can see above the clear winner is nitromethane. But that doesn't mean to go out and pour nitromethane in your car and see how it runs, if you do your engine will surely blow up. Nitromethane is very expensive and dangerous to handle. The interesting alternative to gasoline is Methanol. Methanol will make more power, typically around 20% more power than a similar engine running gasoline. Some things to consider in running methanol is your fuel system will have to be completely changed / upgraded. Based on the table above the fuel system will have to flow approximately 2.5 times as much as the gasoline engine.
I guess the old saying is true:
"Gasoline is for washing parts...Alcohol is for drinking...Nitro is for racing"
SMOKE-M-UP http://www.smokemup.com
Alcohol (Methanol) - Alcohol is usually used in the form of Methyl alcohol or methanol. CH3OH is the chemical formula. Methanol burns at a much richer mixture than gasoline does, between 5.0:1 - 6.0:1. That's 5 lbs of air to one pound of fuel. Methanol has approximately 9,500 BTU/lb. Using our 355, example above, SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and now at 6.0:1 ratio for Methanol is 7.11 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using Methanol fuel our engine is producing 67,545 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.
Nitromethane - is a fuel that is used mostly in specialized drag racing classes, "nitro funny cars" and "top fuel". Nitromethane's chemical formula is CH3NO2. The oxygen in nitromethane's molecular structure means that nitromethane does not need as much atmospheric oxygen to burn, part of the oxygen needed to burn nitromethane is carried in the fuel itself. Typical A/F ratio for nitromethane is 1.7:1 and nitromethane has an energy content of 5,000 BTU/lb. Using our 355, example above, SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and now at 1.7:1 ratio for nitromethane is 25.08 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using Nitromethane fuel our engine is producing 125,412 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.
Fuel Engine Air Flow (cfm) lbs of air (lbs) A/F Ratio Pounds of Fuel (lbs) Energy Content of Fuel (BTU/lb) Total Thermal Energy (BTU)
Gasoline ---------- 567.53 -- 42.64 -- 12.8:1 -- 2.89 -- 18,500 -- 53,176
Methanol --------- 567.53 -- 42.64 -- 6.0:1 -- 7.11 -- 9,500 -- 67,545
Nitromethane --- 567.53 -- 42.64 -- 1.7:1 -- 25.08 -- 5,000 -- 125,412
Summary - As you can see above the clear winner is nitromethane. But that doesn't mean to go out and pour nitromethane in your car and see how it runs, if you do your engine will surely blow up. Nitromethane is very expensive and dangerous to handle. The interesting alternative to gasoline is Methanol. Methanol will make more power, typically around 20% more power than a similar engine running gasoline. Some things to consider in running methanol is your fuel system will have to be completely changed / upgraded. Based on the table above the fuel system will have to flow approximately 2.5 times as much as the gasoline engine.
I guess the old saying is true:
"Gasoline is for washing parts...Alcohol is for drinking...Nitro is for racing"
SMOKE-M-UP http://www.smokemup.com
HURRICANE
TY 4 Stroke God
HOLY COW,,,,,,FINALLY,,,,,someone that knows what he's talking about!!!
THANK YOU
THANK YOU
DoktorC
TY 4 Stroke Master
There's some great info on that site, in addition to all the fuel stuff!!
http://www.smokemup.com/tech/turbo101.php
Good find!
http://www.smokemup.com/tech/turbo101.php
Good find!
Ted Jannetty
TY 4 Stroke God
Definatley Gasoline, and maybe meth injection as a Power adder, boost cooler, Deto eliminator.
We have used Meth injection many times on boosted cars, for different reasons.
Where we would tune for 12.0 on pump fuel we would let the A/F go to 11.0 with the Meth injection for best power and Deto Protection with Pump fuel.
On Race fuel and proper timing it is not unusual to tune for 12.5-12.8 to make max power, providing the engine components, cooling system, oil system are up to the task.
Add a litte Meth and 11.8 sounds about right.
O2 sensors are not gospel, they are just another tool to back up plug readings.
We have used Meth injection many times on boosted cars, for different reasons.
Where we would tune for 12.0 on pump fuel we would let the A/F go to 11.0 with the Meth injection for best power and Deto Protection with Pump fuel.
On Race fuel and proper timing it is not unusual to tune for 12.5-12.8 to make max power, providing the engine components, cooling system, oil system are up to the task.
Add a litte Meth and 11.8 sounds about right.
O2 sensors are not gospel, they are just another tool to back up plug readings.
powderlites
Expert
Big HP turbo
where is the speed at Dave? Popular post seems to quiet now and would like more info soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZSzQez9GU
http://www.powderlites.com/turbokits.html
where is the speed at Dave? Popular post seems to quiet now and would like more info soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZSzQez9GU
http://www.powderlites.com/turbokits.html
TWIN TURBO
Expert
ProstockBenji said:87gtnos , your right Vmax-4 came 1:1 from the factory, but Yamaha offered a gear reduction for them for race teams , I have a Vmax-4 880cc with a Yamaha factory gear reduction. belts hold up better not turning 10,200rpm !!!
520hp is Sick , I hope it stays together .
By the way STOCK V-MAX-4's were 1 tooth different crank to output shaft, NOT 1:1 The dyno ratio was 1.04:1 versus RX's at 1.19:1 and Apex's 1.23:1
Just for the record.
HURRICANE
TY 4 Stroke God
I've been working on my drive-line whenever there is ice(which is intermittent).In the meantime,I've been clutching all this new-found power. To date,,,I've added 92 grams more weight then last year and I'm ready to try it again as soon as we have ice again. My best run so far was in about 1800 ft,at 20lbs boost ,turning 8200 rpm at 144mph.As soon as I turned the boost up again,it went right to the rev limiter.
At this point,all my experimental drive-line is now working in harmony and my focus is to finish clutching the engine as soon as we get ice again
At this point,all my experimental drive-line is now working in harmony and my focus is to finish clutching the engine as soon as we get ice again
ProstockBenji
Expert
TWIN TURBO said:ProstockBenji said:87gtnos , your right Vmax-4 came 1:1 from the factory, but Yamaha offered a gear reduction for them for race teams , I have a Vmax-4 880cc with a Yamaha factory gear reduction. belts hold up better not turning 10,200rpm !!!
520hp is Sick , I hope it stays together .
By the way STOCK V-MAX-4's were 1 tooth different crank to output shaft, NOT 1:1 The dyno ratio was 1.04:1 versus RX's at 1.19:1 and Apex's 1.23:1
Just for the record.
Twin , your probably right . its been so long since I did that I cant remember .
