Scotty G
Newbie
Hey Yamaha enthusiasts,
I am a university student that's currently leading a team of 30+ engineering students in hopes of competing in an international competition called Formula SAE. The goal of this competition is to design, build and race a small formula one style car. There is more information pertaining to the competition and the rules and restrictions surrounding the nature of this competition at the website below.
http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/
Anywho, with our engine being limited to a 4 stroke, 610cc's and a restrictor of 20mm, we figured we would use a Genesis 80FI pulled from an 07/08 Phazer to throw into our car. The engine choice of most teams seems to be Honda's CBR 600, and the perfect engine is that of the Aprilia SXV 550, but our team feels the Genesis 80 FI is up for the job, and with some love and care (tunning and upgrading), we can use this engine to our advantage.
Now my question to you Yamaha enthusiasts is this:
- Do you feel that the engine will be more effective on a <500lbs car than it is on the sled? (i mean in terms of a traction and torque....car to road....sled to snow)
Also....
- if we mounted the engine sideways, to connect the cvt to our drivetrain directly, would that created any adverse affects?
This is the first time a team is going to be using a sled engine with this application in mind, and we are looking forward to seeing our car shred the track. We are open to any suggestions...everything is welcome.
Thanks for your time and consideration,
Scott
I am a university student that's currently leading a team of 30+ engineering students in hopes of competing in an international competition called Formula SAE. The goal of this competition is to design, build and race a small formula one style car. There is more information pertaining to the competition and the rules and restrictions surrounding the nature of this competition at the website below.
http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/
Anywho, with our engine being limited to a 4 stroke, 610cc's and a restrictor of 20mm, we figured we would use a Genesis 80FI pulled from an 07/08 Phazer to throw into our car. The engine choice of most teams seems to be Honda's CBR 600, and the perfect engine is that of the Aprilia SXV 550, but our team feels the Genesis 80 FI is up for the job, and with some love and care (tunning and upgrading), we can use this engine to our advantage.
Now my question to you Yamaha enthusiasts is this:
- Do you feel that the engine will be more effective on a <500lbs car than it is on the sled? (i mean in terms of a traction and torque....car to road....sled to snow)
Also....
- if we mounted the engine sideways, to connect the cvt to our drivetrain directly, would that created any adverse affects?
This is the first time a team is going to be using a sled engine with this application in mind, and we are looking forward to seeing our car shred the track. We are open to any suggestions...everything is welcome.
Thanks for your time and consideration,
Scott
snowsweat
Pro
Great idea. I think the advantages of the CVT and the lighter weight of the engine could be significant. I believe some teams in the recent past have done well using smaller and lighter engines. It doesn't make much sense to me to haul around a (relatively) large 4 cylinder, 130 hp engine when it has to breath through a 20 mm (thus restricting it to 80-85 hp).
The intake design on a Phazer SAE motor will be critical. A CBR engine will exhibit 4 smaller "suction" pulses compared to 2 larger pulses from the 500cc twin. From the way my buddy's Phazer sounds, I don't think the crank is quartered, so at least the pulses will be evenly spaced. Still, the volume between the engine and the restrictor may need to be increased, which could make for a bit of a laggy engine. Fortunately, the CVT will more easily deal with this than a 6 speed manual. I'll bet you could get an honest 70 hp from a restricted Phazer engine, down from 80 in unrestricted form.
The biggest advantage I can see is the use of the CVT. Although everybody thinks they are the next Villeneuve, few of the students have the skill to drive the car at the limit while still shifting. Anyone who has switched from a manual ATV to a belt drive ATV can attest to this: without the bother of shifting, almost all of the driver attention can be focused on keeping the vehicle at the limits of handling.
As for mounting the engine sideways: Most of the differential units I've seen on F-SAE cars are chain driven. I would maintain the transverse mounting and run a chain from a jackshaft to the diff. This would allow easy gearing changes as well.
Anyway, good luck. I look forward to seeing some pictures eventually. I assume this would be for the 2009 competition. If not, you'd better get to work. ; )
The intake design on a Phazer SAE motor will be critical. A CBR engine will exhibit 4 smaller "suction" pulses compared to 2 larger pulses from the 500cc twin. From the way my buddy's Phazer sounds, I don't think the crank is quartered, so at least the pulses will be evenly spaced. Still, the volume between the engine and the restrictor may need to be increased, which could make for a bit of a laggy engine. Fortunately, the CVT will more easily deal with this than a 6 speed manual. I'll bet you could get an honest 70 hp from a restricted Phazer engine, down from 80 in unrestricted form.
The biggest advantage I can see is the use of the CVT. Although everybody thinks they are the next Villeneuve, few of the students have the skill to drive the car at the limit while still shifting. Anyone who has switched from a manual ATV to a belt drive ATV can attest to this: without the bother of shifting, almost all of the driver attention can be focused on keeping the vehicle at the limits of handling.
As for mounting the engine sideways: Most of the differential units I've seen on F-SAE cars are chain driven. I would maintain the transverse mounting and run a chain from a jackshaft to the diff. This would allow easy gearing changes as well.
Anyway, good luck. I look forward to seeing some pictures eventually. I assume this would be for the 2009 competition. If not, you'd better get to work. ; )
Hopefully the restrictor plate evens up the hp disadvantage a Phazer motor has over a CBR motor but other than that it should work great!CVT should be a advantage I think.
SharkAttak
TY 4 Stroke God
post some pic's of it
Scotty G
Newbie
Yes we do intend to compete in the 2009 competition. And yes we feel the cvt will give us an advantage compared to most teams that will probably have drivers that are incapable of shifting and racing at the same time. The Aprillia motor is pretty much at the perfect motor for this competition as it weighs about 75 to 80 pounds, and since it comes off a dirtbike, it can see less hp loss from its 75 hp max.
This is our teams first year starting a project of this caliber and we appreciate all the comments and suggestion everyone has to offer.
We've thought some things through, and some suggestions we have considered are:
boring the engine to 593cc's
bigger rad
super/turbo charging it
throwing a microsquirt EMS
Any comments and/or suggestions there?
This is our teams first year starting a project of this caliber and we appreciate all the comments and suggestion everyone has to offer.
We've thought some things through, and some suggestions we have considered are:
boring the engine to 593cc's
bigger rad
super/turbo charging it
throwing a microsquirt EMS
Any comments and/or suggestions there?
yukonranger
Pro
hmm thats sounds cool. I would love to have a 593 cc bore kit with low comp pistons in my phazer.
PureBlue
Expert
Tim Bender was making small NASCAR's for racing and he was using Yamaha SX 700 motors in them. I"m not sure what type of transmisions he used
Scotty G
Newbie
Kelowna Yamaha tells me Mongoose racing down on the coast of Vancouver have some bore kits, but we have yet to contact them.
Do you have an idea of how thick the walls are before the bore?
Do you have an idea of how thick the walls are before the bore?
Scotty G
Newbie
PureBlue said:
interesting.
would be fun to work with a bigger engine...that's for sure....
PureBlue
Expert
I did a little google-n, if you type in Cup Lites Racing Series, there will be a you-tube race of these cars to watch. http://www.cuplites.info/
Scotty G
Newbie
Those cars sound purdy.
we've considered OWT with gear hydraulics....but you need good horsepower for that...
We've got more ideas posted on our forum.
If you message me, we'll get you a login so you can check out our progress and make comments if you like.
we've considered OWT with gear hydraulics....but you need good horsepower for that...
We've got more ideas posted on our forum.
If you message me, we'll get you a login so you can check out our progress and make comments if you like.
PureBlue
Expert
Scotty G
Newbie
I've seen those before, our car will need to do some endurance racing too...but the track is going to be windier than that
Scotty G
Newbie
I'll post developments as they come along...
So far, we've picked our engine, designed suspension, and the chassis configurations should be done over the course of this long weekend. Hopefully we'll be able to have a final CAD design of our intentions...
We will begin construction and testing early June all the way through to the time of the competition which is in June 09
So far, we've picked our engine, designed suspension, and the chassis configurations should be done over the course of this long weekend. Hopefully we'll be able to have a final CAD design of our intentions...
We will begin construction and testing early June all the way through to the time of the competition which is in June 09
You have in front of you….Mount Everest. 
I’ll try and keep the word count down. – I’ll just throw out some basic stuff.
What will the engine ECU think of summertime temperatures? The injectors run off several sensors - one of them being the air intake speed.
Once you get that sorted then the key to running the 20 mm intake is to have the restrictor about 20 inches from the engine. You would put the restrictor on the engine side of injectors for best performance. So – think about that first – the fuel mixture.
You will have to have some massive gear reductions – maybe 2 jack shafts. You need to determine how fast these cars go and calculate that back using engine rpm to wheel rpm. Assume you set the clutch at 1:1. Do that.
The stock clutches are deigned to feel the load of a heavy track pushing thru heavy snow. In race terms –they are too light for you – you will have to work with the secondary angles and primary so it senses the load of virtually no friction of rolling wheels. It’s possible but you will need some good understanding to dial in the back shift. So that will determine your engine location.
The 900 cc oval sled engine race cars I have seen -run direct drive – no clutch – something you may want to consider if you drive on a track that doesn’t have a lot of slow corners. Benders cars have been around for many years - and use a mild clutch setup that – well lets say works OK.
With the 80 HP engine in a 500 pound car set up with someone with some depth would be un-touchable. But there are not many around that get it. I helped my old race tuner years ago setup a motorcycle with a 500 cc fan cooled sled engine (fan removed) that is just stupid to open up. No street bike has beaten it yet in short drags.
Well – there is start for you. OH – if your guy can’t shift a bike engine fast enough to compete – you should find a new driver.
Racing is not just a HP game -
I’ll try and keep the word count down. – I’ll just throw out some basic stuff.
What will the engine ECU think of summertime temperatures? The injectors run off several sensors - one of them being the air intake speed.
Once you get that sorted then the key to running the 20 mm intake is to have the restrictor about 20 inches from the engine. You would put the restrictor on the engine side of injectors for best performance. So – think about that first – the fuel mixture.
You will have to have some massive gear reductions – maybe 2 jack shafts. You need to determine how fast these cars go and calculate that back using engine rpm to wheel rpm. Assume you set the clutch at 1:1. Do that.
The stock clutches are deigned to feel the load of a heavy track pushing thru heavy snow. In race terms –they are too light for you – you will have to work with the secondary angles and primary so it senses the load of virtually no friction of rolling wheels. It’s possible but you will need some good understanding to dial in the back shift. So that will determine your engine location.
The 900 cc oval sled engine race cars I have seen -run direct drive – no clutch – something you may want to consider if you drive on a track that doesn’t have a lot of slow corners. Benders cars have been around for many years - and use a mild clutch setup that – well lets say works OK.
With the 80 HP engine in a 500 pound car set up with someone with some depth would be un-touchable. But there are not many around that get it. I helped my old race tuner years ago setup a motorcycle with a 500 cc fan cooled sled engine (fan removed) that is just stupid to open up. No street bike has beaten it yet in short drags.
Well – there is start for you. OH – if your guy can’t shift a bike engine fast enough to compete – you should find a new driver.
Racing is not just a HP game -
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