Clutching on the cheap

[stingray719]

Not trying to start anything and you can never have to many tuning parts. I trust you guys and you have all helped me over the last year.

Studroes was one of the first guys to have a viper and tear it down and let a lot of us know about things he found to check and fix before hitting the trail and he has proven to be a stand up guys willing to help, but in this case he says he has adjustable weights and different springs from stock, but that's not enough detail for me to mimic and I'm just not ready to buy someone else's clutch kit at this point. I like to try it on my own first, must be a character flaw.

I also have followed Nos Pro and Stingrays journey with the clutching and what not so I trust them too. I also know I have to do my own work to get what I want out of my sled. So I will try this and see what I end up with.

Buy a used set of weights from hibshman25 for 75 bucks. Spring for about 36 bucks. Shim for about 10 bucks. For around 125 bucks you can try this, and if you are sceptical just buy the shim and spend 10 bucks and 20 minutes of your time to see if it works, then buy the rest.

Still trying to find out if Yamaha put smaller rollers in the primary clutch for 2015. That may negate the need for the primary clutch spring shim.

 

[Studroes144]

A naturally aspirated engine looses 3% hp per every 1000 foot of elevation. Where I ride at 1000' elevation I'm still making 130ish hp. At 8000 feet the viper is going to have a 24% hp lose meaning true hp is only in the 105hp range, which is why the major clutching companies offer mountain specific clutch kits to account for the power loss. Even the difference in weight profile like u guys are pointing is very important..more the less for rider preference. Mine is set to load hard but wind the rpm right up to 9000 whether is be on a launch of on the trail. Everything that has been done with the setup on mine has all been done with a stalker radar gun showing everything from 60 foot out to 1/4 mile and run side by side with another viper. A riding buddy likes his sled clutched for smoother acceleration and then have the rpm build from there. It makes it smooth on the trails but my viper will leave him at any rpm and speed, no doubt a fine line between personal preference and all out performance. I myself would never want a clutch setup that builds in rpm as speed increases cuz from the testing we've done it's proven to make the sled lazy feeling but on the other hand it's smooth and easy to drive

 

[stingray719]

A naturally aspirated engine looses 3% hp per every 1000 foot of elevation. Where I ride at 1000' elevation I'm still making 130ish hp. At 8000 feet the viper is going to have a 24% hp lose meaning true hp is only in the 105hp range, which is why the major clutching companies offer mountain specific clutch kits to account for the power loss. Even the difference in weight profile like u guys are pointing is very important..more the less for rider preference. Mine is set to load hard but wind the rpm right up to 9000 whether is be on a launch of on the trail. Everything that has been done with the setup on mine has all been done with a stalker radar gun showing everything from 60 foot out to 1/4 mile and run side by side with another viper. A riding buddy likes his sled clutched for smoother acceleration and then have the rpm build from there. It makes it smooth on the trails but my viper will leave him at any rpm and speed, no doubt a fine line between personal preference and all out performance. I myself would never want a clutch setup that builds in rpm as speed increases cuz from the testing we've done it's proven to make the sled lazy feeling but on the other hand it's smooth and easy to drive

I am certain your clutch works well, not saying it doesn't. My goal was to find out why this model using tried and true Yamaha clutches did not work correctly, then find a fix. Now, there has to be more than one fix to this problem but I found a quick and cheap fix and did not go farther. One well known vendor was testing with smaller (previous OEM stock) rollers, but I found a fix and had no appetite to lose any more weekends testing. But I suspect smaller rollers and a diff secondary spring and helix might also get there but like I said I am not losing any more weekends testing. My Viper ROCKS so clutch testing for me is done, except maybe small adjutments.

 

[Yam4Strokin]

8FP Weights Part number 8FP-17605-00-00 are $55.99 each retail ($167.97 for a set of 3)
GWG Primary Spring Part Number 90501-603L3-00: $24.49
Primary spring shim from Yamaha Part Number 90201-483P9-00: $6.95
3.6 gram rivet Part number 90269-06006-00: $2.95 each ($8.85 for a set of 3)
Dalton Helix 46/40 (or similar angle): $125
Helix Shims so secondary spring doesn't coil bind: $1

That, if you paid retail, would come to $334.26 for a total for all components. Now with the rivets, if the 3.6 gram isn't correct on the first time, then you have to grind the rivet and pound it back out and buy 3 more. An aftermarket clutch kit costs about $400 (just looking at Ulmer's, since that is the most common one seen on here) and has infinite adjust ability with screws & washers (this will allow easily for more horsepower added later on (like if someone were to spring for the turbo option), etc).

This was not to try to take anything away from anyone, just showing retail vs retail pricing, it's not much different.

Also, if Yamaha did put smaller rollers in, that will have the opposite affect on the clutching from what you just described you did Stingray. You said you put a shim in under the primary spring, this will raise the engagement and top end RPM. Small rollers will make the clutch engage lower and upshift faster (bringing down top end RPM), but maybe I'm just reading your wording incorrectly.

 

[Studroes144]

Not trying to start anything and you can never have to many tuning parts. I trust you guys and you have all helped me over the last year.

Studroes was one of the first guys to have a viper and tear it down and let a lot of us know about things he found to check and fix before hitting the trail and he has proven to be a stand up guys willing to help, but in this case he says he has adjustable weights and different springs from stock, but that's not enough detail for me to mimic and I'm just not ready to buy someone else's clutch kit at this point. I like to try it on my own first, must be a character flaw.

I also have followed Nos Pro and Stingrays journey with the clutching and what not so I trust them too. I also know I have to do my own work to get what I want out of my sled. So I will try this and see what I end up with.

To be more specific on my setup for those interested, D&D 53-69 magnaforce weights, loaded 0-0-2-3 heel to tip, 46/50 helix, orange pink orange primary spring, and for mine we stuck with the stock secondary spring, they may have tweaked it a bit later in the year with a different secondary spring, secondary wound 6 and 2 (80 degrees) on trail or drag race the response is instant, it'll pull 9000 rpm as soon as the throttle hits the bar and settles in at 8900 for the long haul, it'll run 102 mph in 1000' and still pulling 8900. In deep snow it does not work, I could adjust the weights so it did, but I don't want it to perform on the steep and deep so personal preference comes in there

 

[stingray719]

8FP Weights Part number 8FP-17605-00-00 are $55.99 each retail ($167.97 for a set of 3)
GWG Primary Spring Part Number 90501-603L3-00: $24.49
Primary spring shim from Yamaha Part Number 90201-483P9-00: $6.95
3.6 gram rivet Part number 90269-06006-00: $2.95 each ($8.85 for a set of 3)
Dalton Helix 46/40 (or similar angle): $125
Helix Shims so secondary spring doesn't coil bind: $1

That, if you paid retail, would come to $334.26 for a total for all components. Now with the rivets, if the 3.6 gram isn't correct on the first time, then you have to grind the rivet and pound it back out and buy 3 more. An aftermarket clutch kit costs about $400 (just looking at Ulmer's, since that is the most common one seen on here) and has infinite adjust ability with screws & washers (this will allow easily for more horsepower added later on (like if someone were to spring for the turbo option), etc).

This was not to try to take anything away from anyone, just showing retail vs retail pricing, it's not much different.

Also, if Yamaha did put smaller rollers in, that will have the opposite affect on the clutching from what you just described you did Stingray. You said you put a shim in under the primary spring, this will raise the engagement and top end RPM. Small rollers will make the clutch engage lower and upshift faster (bringing down top end RPM), but maybe I'm just reading your wording incorrectly.

Do you work for Ulmer? I was curious no big deal to me if you do just your posts seem to indicate that.

I never mentioned buying a helix and I have not, that would be fine tuning and this post is about clutching on the cheap.

Ok, this does not need to turn into clutching 101 but smaller rollers = more belt clamping force. Diff secondary spring can slow upshift, and one person with a 2015 said they observed a red instead of pink secondary spring begging the question did Yamaha also put smaller rollers in. All that aside back to the original post we are talking a setup proven to work no matter why.

 

[Yam4Strokin]

No, I do not work for Ulmer (wish I did though!), I have purchased their products for many years and am a continued customer!

I understand smaller rollers = more belt clamping force, but your shim recommendation will lessen the belt clamping force, so wouldn't that be two opposite affects?

Telling the spring color is tough, sometimes they look different, but are the same. A caliper would be an easy way to measure the wire diameter.

 

[stingray719]

No, I do not work for Ulmer (wish I did though!), I have purchased their products for many years and am a continued customer!

I understand smaller rollers = more belt clamping force, but your shim recommendation will lessen the belt clamping force, so wouldn't that be two opposite affects?

Telling the spring color is tough, sometimes they look different, but are the same. A caliper would be an easy way to measure the wire diameter.

Agreed, this clutch seems to defy normal clutching. If you put a primary clutch shim in any other Yamaha it just raises the engagement speed, but yet it has a large positive effect on the Viper. We have found more than a few reasons for this I am not going to go into just wanted to point out that in decades of setting up Yamaha clutches I have never seen one that takes these kinds of settings and likes it.

So in my opinion do "clutching for cheap" or buy a kit from one of many vendors including Ulmer. Too bad we have no way to actually quantify the most effective kit or DIY, the only real hard info we have is NOS-PRO running the clutching for cheap on asphalt and has time slips. Would sure like to see Barry line up with him for a clutch test.

 

[Studroes144]

That would be a good time!..however he isn't going to want to line up with me this year anymore..unless the setup makes it magically as fast as a 190hp sled..maybe more if I'm lucky

 

[sxr70001]

Thanks for posting your complete setup Studroes. Now we have several options for people wanting to setup their own clutching.

You guys sure don't make it easy for us novices. I wish you all lived around here.

I could just have you all up to my cabin this winter and we could get my sled sorted.

 

[stingray719]

Thanks for posting your complete setup Studroes. Now we have several options for people wanting to setup their own clutching.

You guys sure don't make it easy for us novices. I wish you all lived around here.

I could just have you all up to my cabin this winter and we could get my sled sorted.

Just do the stage 2 clutch running NOS-PRO weights and you will be so close to spot on it will surprise you. Buy a used set of weights and your setup is cheap enough if you don't like it you are not out a bunch of money. NOS-PRO (Terry) and I run pretty much the same thing just less weight on the weights in mine because I run above 10k altitude, and that setup pulls hard on trails, deep powder, and asphalt. Don't like it you can still spend the big bucks for a kit.

 

[stingray719]

To be more specific on my setup for those interested, D&D 53-69 magnaforce weights, loaded 0-0-2-3 heel to tip, 46/50 helix, orange pink orange primary spring, and for mine we stuck with the stock secondary spring, they may have tweaked it a bit later in the year with a different secondary spring, secondary wound 6 and 2 (80 degrees) on trail or drag race the response is instant, it'll pull 9000 rpm as soon as the throttle hits the bar and settles in at 8900 for the long haul, it'll run 102 mph in 1000' and still pulling 8900. In deep snow it does not work, I could adjust the weights so it did, but I don't want it to perform on the steep and deep so personal preference comes in there

The setup we run is not snow specific, runs as well in deep snow as asphalt. You tuned to a specific snow condition and nothing wrong with that I just wanted a setup that was able to work anywhere.

 

[Studroes144]

The setup we run is not snow specific, runs as well in deep snow as asphalt. You tuned to a specific snow condition and nothing wrong with that I just wanted a setup that was able to work anywhere.

Most guys will like that kinda setup, one that works well in most conditions, adding shims for more belt pressure and getting weights to hold a steady rpm is going to basically just a comfort setup to optimize a rather stock setup. One of our guys likes his viper setup like that, his runs good on the trail, in the snow and in a race, however it's only faster in the snow than mine..by snow I mean the 1 mile of deep snow we ride to to access the 5000 miles of trails..the setup I went with is a much faster trail/race setup.

 

[stingray719]

Most guys will like that kinda setup, one that works well in most conditions, adding shims for more belt pressure and getting weights to hold a steady rpm is going to basically just a comfort setup to optimize a rather stock setup. One of our guys likes his viper setup like that, his runs good on the trail, in the snow and in a race, however it's only faster in the snow than mine..by snow I mean the 1 mile of deep snow we ride to to access the 5000 miles of trails..the setup I went with is a much faster trail/race setup.

Agreed, as I have said a few times I am after the low hanging fruit by getting the major issue out of the way. From there the sky is the limit on fine tunning as you have mentioned.

 

[Kerrdog569]

Barry sorry to say a clutch set for 8000 feet WILL work fine for the same sled at 1000 feet with only a rivet/weight adjustment. Case in point is NOS-PRO has the same setup as my powder sled except the amount of weight on the primary clutch weights. Please don't confuse clutching more than it already is.

Also, the profile on the weight is more important than even the amount of weight. That is why NOS-PRO and I run a flat profile weight as Shagman mentioned. And it does matter if the weight is in the tip tip or the base of the weight, I will let Shagman explain that part. There is definatly more than one way to set a clutch and have it work, but we are offering a setup that is cheap and does work and we are not trying to help any vendor.

Most of the time trail riders will want to add weight in the middle(if that's an option)and I usually added weight at the tip for my drag racing set ups,of course nothing can replace testing and I wish I had a dollar for every hour I spent in the field changing springs and weights(grass drag prep,too dam cold in the winter to change outside I'm smart enough to go in my heated garage then