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Difficult starting in extreme cold

A battery heater is a good suggestion, and for those leaving there sleds outside overnight make sure you somehow close off the exhaust at the back of the sled. If not cold air (wind) can travel through the exhaust straight into the motor freezing the hell out of it.
 

Mooseman said:
Where did you install the coolant heater? Depending on where you installed it, the heat might not be making it to the engine.
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Heater was installed by dealer who installs them regularly. It gets hoses hot so seems to work fine. Got an interesting comment by someone below and testing it now.
"Stan it sound like you your map sensor is sensing its cold out and the coolant sensors are sensing the engine is warm and may be giving you a starting issue. I would suggest unplugging your coolant heater plug every thing else in over night then about 30 min before you want to start it plug in your coolant heater. This should help."
 
It's possible the ECU thinks the engine is hot and not injecting as much startup fuel (priming) as it would when cold.

Just out of curiosity, where did the dealer install the coolant heater?
 
Mooseman said:
It's possible the ECU thinks the engine is hot and not injecting as much startup fuel (priming) as it would when cold.

Just out of curiosity, where did the dealer install the coolant heater?
Click to expand...
Mooseman - It's an inline install in the coolant hoses. A small passive circulating thing that has the hot antifreeze rising into the engine. I think your statement about the ECU is the best theory on this so far. Engine starts better without the coolant heater so it makes sense.
 
I just did a little sleuthing and it looks to me that our batteries lose about 40 percent of their cold cranking amps (CCA) as the temp goes from 0C to -30C. I think the voltage would still read high in a no load situation but drop sharply under load. I've always had both a battery blanket and a block heater on all my vehicles(not quite true, I have one now without and it is the only one that gives us any grief). With luck I'll come home with one tomorrow and report back after I've had some time with it. The other aspect of heating your battery is extending its life because starter batteries don't like deep discharges and cold temps mean they go to bat with one arm tied behind their back.

I've been out daily in our recent cold snap, -25 to 35 C, but it has had 4hours on the coolant heater and an hour with a 1500W heater, all under a tarp. Insulated tarp might be coming home too. Do I really do all this so I can freakin' ice fish with nose dribble freezing my line to the reel.
 
Mooseman said:
I would have liked to know which line it was installed on. Check this thread and see where yours was installed.
http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/coolant-heater.133875/
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Mooseman - have not been avoiding you on the question just trying to get some schematics for my particular model (2013 Venture MP). The heater is definitely installed in the line from the bottom of the radiator rising upwards. It heats up hose above heater fast despite being only about 250 watts according to my meter. Now according to the schematic you linked me to this is putting the hot antifreeze right into the tunnel heat cooler not the engine. I will let you know here when I tear into things more and confirm if my model is the same. This could be some of the problem of why I don't get much help from plugging in but we'll see. Thanks, Stan
 
Yeah, just because they're a dealer doesn't mean they know everything! The coolant must circulate from that heat and probably has a flow direction arrow to indicate which way the heated coolant goes.

Reading your posts, I wonder if the much colder and denser air is preventing it from starting because the ECU is not supplying some extra fuel to compensate for it (too lean). When you heat it with the hair dryer and tarp, this heats the air and that less dense air is what the ECU is supplying fuel for.

Or it could be because the dealer didn't put the heater in the right place.
 
Okay Mooseman - got through tearing into engine compartment and also using a schematic for the 2013 MP to ID everything and flow direction.

Heater is installed in outlet hose coming out of bottom of radiator.
Heated coolant then rises (can easily feel this) and is routed directly into, through and out of heat exchanger.
Coolant then goes to reservoir/fill tank, then to water pump inlet and out outlet.
Coolant then goes to water jacket joint on engine and into engine block.
Engine outlet sends coolant to radiator inlet on top of radiator completing circuit.

When I plug in heater it almost immediately warms hose above and soon gets uncomfortably hot. By the time coolant gets to engine block it is cooled so much I can see why the engine heater doesn't help it start in cold. I let heater run for 3 hours and it never was putting hot coolant into water jacket joint on engine block. Wonder how many heater installs are done this way? Need to sleep on this one, goodnight. Stan
 
The 2007 phazer had a cold start issue that involved a new ECU with better fuel mapping and a different decompression spring, I would hope the new Venture would have this already but the priming three times before attempting to start has helped with my 2007, recently purchased it and doesn't have the updated components from previous owner, my wife has a 2008 phazer that starts much easier. Adjustable fuel pressure regulator from Schmidt brothers may help by richening the fuel right from the start? What about the fuel pump relay that has been such a problem, I would assume once again yours has the updated version, do you hear the fuel pump humm when you first turn the key?
 
All '08+ Phazers and VL/MP's were updated from the factory as well as having a bulletin/extended (now expired) warranty put out for those complaining about hard starting in extreme cold for '07 models. I got that update and it did help. It used to take 6-7 revolutions to start in normal temperature and now it's max 4. I never had a chance to experience it without the update in extreme cold. Coldest I have ever started it was -25c. What the updated ECU actually did was allow fuel to spray out the injectors before the oil pressure was up while cranking and the weaker decompression spring allowed it to engage when the cranking is slower.

The fuel ratio can be adjusted by going into diagnostic mode but it will richen it up all the time, not just at startup. Might foul the plugs if not done right.
 
I had a 2008 with dealer installed coolant heater.oil heater.trickle charger.sled would start on its own down to -22,f..plugged in all night maybe -26,f.coolant heater heated every thing but engine,i moved coolant heater to front of engine to the water pump outlet hose[tight fit but doable] will now start any temp in one hour plugged in.highly recommend ski shim to correct eratic ,darting steering.
 
stanzuray said:
Okay Mooseman - got through tearing into engine compartment and also using a schematic for the 2013 MP to ID everything and flow direction.

Heater is installed in outlet hose coming out of bottom of radiator.
Heated coolant then rises (can easily feel this) and is routed directly into, through and out of heat exchanger.
Coolant then goes to reservoir/fill tank, then to water pump inlet and out outlet.
Coolant then goes to water jacket joint on engine and into engine block.
Engine outlet sends coolant to radiator inlet on top of radiator completing circuit.

When I plug in heater it almost immediately warms hose above and soon gets uncomfortably hot. By the time coolant gets to engine block it is cooled so much I can see why the engine heater doesn't help it start in cold. I let heater run for 3 hours and it never was putting hot coolant into water jacket joint on engine block. Wonder how many heater installs are done this way? Need to sleep on this one, goodnight. Stan
Click to expand...
in that location it trys to heat rear exchanger,heat never makes it to engine.install front of engine water pump outlet hose.
 
50mile said:
I had a 2008 with dealer installed coolant heater.oil heater.trickle charger.sled would start on its own down to -22,f..plugged in all night maybe -26,f.coolant heater heated every thing but engine,i moved coolant heater to front of engine to the water pump outlet hose[tight fit but doable] will now start any temp in one hour plugged in.highly recommend ski shim to correct eratic ,darting steering.
Click to expand...
You are having almost identical start temp abilities to me. Hopefully with more miles on engine it'll even start at minus 25-30F out on the trail in a pinch. I'll reinstall heater and should be able to start in 50 below in town no problem. Most I was able to test the MP in was 40 below F with the hair dryer and it started so easy with so little heat time I'm sure 50 below would be no trouble. All the speculation about something needing the hot air from the hair dryer was simply the heater being installed wrong. So problem solved.
On another note instead of remapping the fuel injectors to put out more fuel on start up to have it start colder out on the trail without electricity (and then having it use more fuel when it gets warm ?) could one install a simple fuel primer in the throttle body?? Like to thank everyone for the help - who knows how long I would have gone on thinking in the wrong direction. Stan
 
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