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FAST M-20 Video Comparison on Apex and Attack


Thanks for the great post jzack. I read your airwave development story in a magazine a couple of years back. Pretty interesting.
 
jzack,
I appreciate what you are saying and I am still impressed with what I saw in the video, but I'm not excited if it requires an on board air compressor to achieve that level of performance. It isn't my intent to bash or insult, but the air compressor seems like another band aid to expand the performance window like the electric FRA control was. To me it is just more failure prone parts and additional weight. If that isn't what was demonstrated in the video than please correct me. I originally figured the M-20 sled was prepped differently for each run.

This past week I've been paying particular attention to my M-10 and when I compare it to my stock Nytro skid, there is no comparison. The only thing the M-10 does better is deliver a better ride in the stutters. They truly disappear, it is an amazing experience. In those conditions you are actually being suspended, just floating between the top and bottom of the travel, but never topping or bottoming out. But, come up on some g-outs or big whoops and the M-10 crashes through its travel. In addition it doesn't transfer. I'm sure the air wave is better, but I'm thinking it is still confined within the design perimeters of the original M-10, falling rate architecture and a modern, well tuned stock skid will deliver a comparable ride.

Maybe I'm wrong in that assertation?
 
AKrider- Did you download the doc. with the testimonials?

1) I can assure you the various terrain in the video didn't require changing air pressure. I ride mine all day from 6" to 2-3'ers w/o ever touching the button.

2) The compressor we use will fit in the palm of your hand and only weighs 2-3lb. if I remember correctly.

3) The "M-10 architecture" is actually more modern than any of the current OEM big-bump skids. ALL the OEM's are still using a rear scissor link with torsion springs. Same design used for decades, just with a little more travel and fancier shocks.

4) Yes, the shock ratio is falling BUT, the spring force is rising progressively. This provides a total correction for the harsh G-outs.

5) I have found even the most "modern" big-bump skids just don't compare to the Airwave in the rough. I ride with friends who have Dragons, F-series, XP-X's, they all agree, Airwave is much better.
 
<<<<AKrider- Did you download the doc. with the testimonials?

1) I can assure you the various terrain in the video didn't require changing air pressure. I ride mine all day from 6" to 2-3'ers w/o ever touching the button.

2) The compressor we use will fit in the palm of your hand and only weighs 2-3lb. if I remember correctly.

3) The "M-10 architecture" is actually more modern than any of the current OEM big-bump skids. ALL the OEM's are still using a rear scissor link with torsion springs. Same design used for decades, just with a little more travel and fancier shocks.

4) Yes, the shock ratio is falling BUT, the spring force is rising progressively. This provides a total correction for the harsh G-outs.

5) I have found even the most "modern" big-bump skids just don't compare to the Airwave in the rough. I ride with friends who have Dragons, F-series, XP-X's, they all agree, Airwave is much better. >>>>

I'm sorry. I'm willing to grant the M-20 is a pretty cool suspension, but I'm struggling with the concept that it's as superior as the way it's being presented here.

The OEM skids, if tuned for the narrower "performance" window that the Fast skids are so good in, can play fairly well too? Check out the feedback from MANY IQ owners to verify. Fast isn't the only one playing the coupling game....

The thing that sets the torsion spring skids apart from the Fast skids is the fact the torsion spring skids CAN be tuned to the window the owner desires! This is a huge point in making the OEM skids MUCH more versatile when viewed as what they are capable of doing.... This, in my mind, proves any skid design is STILL a compromise?

New vs. old technology is a moot issue. What works is what's on topic here, and that's not agreeing one is older than the other. I really don't see that much difference in the age of the designs.

And please don't take this wrong. I think the M-20 is a terrific skid - given the fairly limited slice of the market they're going to run in due to the cost of the system.
 
jzack said:
AKrider- Did you download the doc. with the testimonials?

1) I can assure you the various terrain in the video didn't require changing air pressure. I ride mine all day from 6" to 2-3'ers w/o ever touching the button.

2) The compressor we use will fit in the palm of your hand and only weighs 2-3lb. if I remember correctly.

3) The "M-10 architecture" is actually more modern than any of the current OEM big-bump skids. ALL the OEM's are still using a rear scissor link with torsion springs. Same design used for decades, just with a little more travel and fancier shocks.

4) Yes, the shock ratio is falling BUT, the spring force is rising progressively. This provides a total correction for the harsh G-outs.

5) I have found even the most "modern" big-bump skids just don't compare to the Airwave in the rough. I ride with friends who have Dragons, F-series, XP-X's, they all agree, Airwave is much better.
Click to expand...

I did read through most of the testimonials. I think I've seen them posted on another site. I'd have to ride an Airwave to believe all the claims. I'm not at all impressed with the ride of an M-10 in the deep whoops and g-outs. So for me it would be a giant leap of faith to accept that air shocks are the key to making an M-10 style suspension capable of doing all that is claimed. But, I do see that by using progressive air shocks inside a falling rate skid frame would offer a wider range of performance over steel springs. I'd like to read some real world TY reviews on the system as it has my interest piqued.
 
well here's my reall world feedback on the airwave. 350+ miles so far and what i now know is the airwave is as good as advertised. but the front of my 04 rx1 sucks so bad that it ruins the ride overall. i know this because when i hit the gas over bumps, they just about disapear. then when i let of the gas it gets rough again. same happens when i sit more foward or back on the seat. i am seriously considering their assult shocks for the front now. maybe a tax refund will make this possible. once i do get them on i will post feedback again on the whole package. all said, i recomend this airwave, especialy if you are running anything but yamaha shocks on the front. there are posts here about the stock skid capable of riding as well with a good calibration. i just dont get how anyone can make any yamaha skid ride worth a crap. ive tried long enough. i give up! they suck period!!
 
well say what you want about m-10 .....

a guy in our group .. 360lbs . ridinga rx-1 with an ohlins equipped m-10 ..

still did over 100mph . zero holeshot . but as far as ride quality he said was spectacular he got to ride that sled they way the little guys could ride theirs .. huge bumps no problem stutters no problem gettin air over big whoops at 90mph no problem . hoppin it of 3-4 ft drop offs no problem ....

but how do ya get that skid to hook ? thats the only complaint !
 
I saw the M-10 could be converted to air shock. That is a nice option. Why would air shocks increase the hook up? Seems like the biggest issue with lack of transfer is the coupling action taking place too soon.
 
They sould compare at least with a GT Ohlins with adjustable rebound.. because a lot of bouncing around in the video is too much rebound..

:exc:
 
AKrider said:
I saw the M-10 could be converted to air shock. That is a nice option. Why would air shocks increase the hook up? Seems like the biggest issue with lack of transfer is the coupling action taking place too soon.
Click to expand...

Are you thinking of converting to the air (Assault) shocks or to the Airwave? There is a difference. I know converting to the Airwave will improve transfer because the forces applied to the rear torque-arm change, allowing the arm to move back in the coupler slot easier (more squat).

Also, pay attention to how the suspension is mounted in the tunnel. Make sure the rear of the rail (at the axle) is elevated slightly ( 1/2" to 1.5") above the ground when the front portion of the rail is just in contact with ground at full extension. You must elevate the sled slightly to do this of course. This will ensure maximum transfer.
 
jzack said:
Are you thinking of converting to the air (Assault) shocks or to the Airwave? There is a difference. I know converting to the Airwave will improve transfer because the forces applied to the rear torque-arm change, allowing the arm to move back in the coupler slot easier (more squat).

Also, pay attention to how the suspension is mounted in the tunnel. Make sure the rear of the rail (at the axle) is elevated slightly ( 1/2" to 1.5") above the ground when the front portion of the rail is just in contact with ground at full extension. You must elevate the sled slightly to do this of course. This will ensure maximum transfer.
Click to expand...

I'll double check the elevation of the rear axle. I used Fast's Yamaha mounting kit and seem to remember the rear being raised up slightly as compared to the front of the track. I just seem to remember it looking odd, but I'll have to check it again.

I was under the impression that the Assault air shock upgrade would make an M-10 into the Airwave.
 
kill3rBacon said:
jzack said:
kill3rBacon said:
but how do ya get that skid to hook ? thats the only complaint !
Click to expand...

Convert it to an M-20 Airwave.
Click to expand...


you know how much $$ is in my skid with rem res ohlins in front and rear?

there has to be another option . thats way to much dough in dampers to waste buying another skid .
Click to expand...

You don't have to buy a new skid. FAST has a conversion kit. You can keep your Ohlins on the front of the rear (just re-valve) but you MAY have to give up the Ohlins on the rear. FAST is using a shock with by-pass valving there. If you really wanted to though, I'm sure you could get your Ohlins to work with some re-valving. Just talk to Brian at TeamFAST.

Also, for getting the most transfer, pay attention to how the skid is mounted in the tunnel as I mentioned in my earlier post.
 
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