Alatalo
TY 4 Stroke Master
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2005
- Messages
- 1,420
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 973
I certainly do not agree with that statement. Look at the streetbike market, for instance. Some of the best handling and best performing streetbikes are also the ones with the best fit and finish. There is no reason for the snowmobile market to have to be the complete opposite.AKrider said:
This thread shows that a lot of Yamaha customers have been loyal customers because of an outstanding fit and finish. They could not get this from Cat, Pol and Doo, but they sure got it from Yamaha for a lot of years. This is obviously about to change, so no wonder the boat is rocking...
Statements like "wait until you have seen the actual production units" does not add much to the debate. Some guys are not only worried about demo sleds that run like crap (which never happened before in Yamaha history...). Some guys are also worried about what they have seen and heard of 2012-2013 Cats and they want to know if these issues are sorted out BEFORE they put their name on the dotted line BEFORE anybody gets to see an actual production unit.
AKrider
TY 4 Stroke God
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, it's just the way it is.
In all honesty I don't think Yamaha has a good handle on the Viper and the poor running Vipers demo's are a result of that. I believe the whole deal was rushed to production and things won't be completely sorted out until next season.
But, I'd rather deal with that then a sled Yamaha thinks is perfect and then refuses to significantly update or change for years to come, i.e. Nytro. I've owned and ridden 3 different brands since '85 so I'm willing to accept some issues, as long as I, my buddies, or the aftermarket can fix them. Polaris can be pretty bad in this area, but the problems in my experience are fixable and worth working through. Of course I'm lucky to have avoided the bad Polaris models (which there have been a bunch). Ski-doo was probably the best brand for me (until my '13 RMK) in that they were pretty well sorted out performance wise, great fit and finish as well as excellent build quality and quite reliable. Yamaha was basically a reliable, great performing motor and was a very well finished sled. It just looked and felt like a quality piece of equipment and all the castings were really amazing from an engineering/manufacturing perspective. However, the performance of the chassis was ..... eh. The motor is why I stuck to it for so long but holy cow, the chassis was just not there. I spent more time and money on my Yamaha chassis than I did any of my Doo's or Polaris sleds. My Vector chassis was starting to spit in half behind the bulkhead and I kept having to replace rivits. The Nytro was better/stouter but the front end was weak and would slightly bend after every race and its geometry totally sucked. i think because the poor front end geometry slowed a guy down is why I didn't see more chassis issues. My Vector handled better, let me hit the high speed bumps harder and it then started falling apart sooner. It didn't do me any good to have a 50,000 mile life motor housed in a 4,000 mile life chassis. That isn't a bash, just what I experienced and one of the reasons I went back to a two-stroke. Traditionally, in my experience, my Polaris sleds have had the strongest chassis.
Anyhow, I think the Viper will be worth the effort to work the bugs out on and reap the benefits from that work. But, I think true blue Yamaha guys will be in for a rude awakening as it's going to require more time in the garage than a genuine Yamaha. But, if you like performance and tinkering, it will be worth the effort and a guy will be getting more benefit from his time wrenching in a Viper than a Nytro. The best thing about this situation is a guy can talk to Cat guys or a Cat dealer to get the fixes because they will occur much faster from the Cat side than they will the Yamaha side.
In all honesty I don't think Yamaha has a good handle on the Viper and the poor running Vipers demo's are a result of that. I believe the whole deal was rushed to production and things won't be completely sorted out until next season.
But, I'd rather deal with that then a sled Yamaha thinks is perfect and then refuses to significantly update or change for years to come, i.e. Nytro. I've owned and ridden 3 different brands since '85 so I'm willing to accept some issues, as long as I, my buddies, or the aftermarket can fix them. Polaris can be pretty bad in this area, but the problems in my experience are fixable and worth working through. Of course I'm lucky to have avoided the bad Polaris models (which there have been a bunch). Ski-doo was probably the best brand for me (until my '13 RMK) in that they were pretty well sorted out performance wise, great fit and finish as well as excellent build quality and quite reliable. Yamaha was basically a reliable, great performing motor and was a very well finished sled. It just looked and felt like a quality piece of equipment and all the castings were really amazing from an engineering/manufacturing perspective. However, the performance of the chassis was ..... eh. The motor is why I stuck to it for so long but holy cow, the chassis was just not there. I spent more time and money on my Yamaha chassis than I did any of my Doo's or Polaris sleds. My Vector chassis was starting to spit in half behind the bulkhead and I kept having to replace rivits. The Nytro was better/stouter but the front end was weak and would slightly bend after every race and its geometry totally sucked. i think because the poor front end geometry slowed a guy down is why I didn't see more chassis issues. My Vector handled better, let me hit the high speed bumps harder and it then started falling apart sooner. It didn't do me any good to have a 50,000 mile life motor housed in a 4,000 mile life chassis. That isn't a bash, just what I experienced and one of the reasons I went back to a two-stroke. Traditionally, in my experience, my Polaris sleds have had the strongest chassis.
Anyhow, I think the Viper will be worth the effort to work the bugs out on and reap the benefits from that work. But, I think true blue Yamaha guys will be in for a rude awakening as it's going to require more time in the garage than a genuine Yamaha. But, if you like performance and tinkering, it will be worth the effort and a guy will be getting more benefit from his time wrenching in a Viper than a Nytro. The best thing about this situation is a guy can talk to Cat guys or a Cat dealer to get the fixes because they will occur much faster from the Cat side than they will the Yamaha side.
Suckur
Pro
I don't know why you guys are saying these sleds have poor fit and finish. They look fantastic IMO. I have a whole season on a white one and it still looks great. Gaps are good, panels line up, gauge is great, buttons are well designed and very functional. I have found it to be much better than a Phazer, on par easily with a Nytro but doesn't have the bling of the Apex. With this type of sled, you are going to be pounding on it, running through trees, jumping it, laying it over etc...things that you can't really do easily on an Apex or Vector. It's going to get scratched and dinged if you are using it to its potential. I would feel terrible ruining the finish on an apex. Don't sweat it, it'll look fantastic. I think that a lot of fellas are still hurt that AC is making it. Kind of like Ford making Land Rover or Tata making Jaguar?
DeerHuntr
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Suckur said:
X2. I have two buddies with pro cross 800 and I think they look great.Fit and finish is on tthe bottom of my list of worries. One guy lost his chaincase and they have both blown belts inside 1000 miles but they ride extremely hard. These issues are at the top of my worry list. As far as the demos not running well I didn't see that either. The demo units I rode ran well and the clutching seemed spot on for the most part, the xtx did hive me a pop or two on the exhaust one time but its expected I was riding a Prototype. The RTX I rode ran just like my Nytro
09nytro
TY 4 Stroke God
What does F&F mean ?
Every time it comes up the engines come onto play and handling.....so just wondering what F&F means to most....
Every time it comes up the engines come onto play and handling.....so just wondering what F&F means to most....
Fullback
Expert
09nytro said:
Fit & Finish
09nytro
TY 4 Stroke God
I know what F&F means ...just seem like every time FIT&FINISH comes up people start talking about the engine and handling ....but not how the panels fit ..... I think it looks good myself......just very nervous about the chassis...
Suckur
Pro
The chassis is tight. Now the Nytro chassis...that makes me nervous!
Suckur said:The chassis is tight. Now the Nytro chassis...that makes me nervous!
How many miles do you have on a nytro, suck?
Yamacat21
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I know Mazz has over 5000 miles on his nytro rtx. Only issue I know of on his is exhaust donuts. Sorry I know this is a viper thread not nytro just wanted to share experience.
Suckur
Pro
snoway said:Suckur said:The chassis is tight. Now the Nytro chassis...that makes me nervous!
How many miles do you have on a nytro, suck?
My friend and neighbor is the manager of the local Yamaha. He lets me ride his demo Nytros all the time. My Phazer would spank it - not power wize, of course. But in the "rough trail" category, the phazer will out-handle the nytro any day of the week. So much so that it didn't matter how much grunt the Nytro had. The Procross chassis spanks the Phazer. How many miles do you have on a Procross, Snoway?
glad you have a local yamaha dealer to lend you a nytro demo while yur cat is down.....LOL.
I made no claims about the PC either way except that the AC7000 felt planted and stable with zero transfer on the smooth trails we rode in the demo.
Kinda boring to me.
I made no claims about the PC either way except that the AC7000 felt planted and stable with zero transfer on the smooth trails we rode in the demo.
Kinda boring to me.
Sasquatch
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2004
- Messages
- 3,699
- Reaction score
- 974
- Points
- 1,733
- Location
- North Western Ontario
- Website
- www.dptc.com
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- Yamaha's
I think that Fit and Finish always seems to get around to reliability. But Fit and Finish means as some have said how panels line up or gaps and seams.
Yami has had their share of fit and finish snafoo's over the years. F+F is not why I bought a Yami. I bought it for its motor and clutches. I put up with the fact that the hood rubs and wears the finish, that the seat rubbed on the rivets and wore holes in the cover. that the front end bushings where loose from day one, that the handling of the sled was so scary I had to lower the front, increase ski pressure to the extreeme along with a stiffer sway bar just so I could keep it from rolling and mine was an improved version, the 03 was insane!
I have never thought the fit and finish of the Cats I owned and still own was perfect but I never thought it was bad either. My family that had and have Cats and Doo's never though the fit and finish was bad nor have I.
I think when we talk build quality, Yami if anything tends to over build and make things heavier then they need to be (Nytro front ends are an exception). This fact (overbuild) to me is not a bad thing.
To those who think F+F makes the Yamaha sleds better then the others need to do a bit of a rethink. It may make them look prettier in some people minds but It took Yami how long to make handwarmers that work. Yet Cat which in some peoples minds has poor fit and finish got that one right! Take a look at all our little issues with Yami and most of them are little. F+F never stopped them from happening!
Now my latest Yami is a damn fine sled! I have no real complaints other then the mirrors make removing the headlight pod a nightmare. The idler wheel placement sucks along with the need for larger wheels of fancy slides. But over all I really like the sled and am quite happy with it. Yami did a good job on the XTX!
Cat has a good chassis and can learn from Yami on F+F but F+F is not the be all end all of sleds. IMHO!
Yami has had their share of fit and finish snafoo's over the years. F+F is not why I bought a Yami. I bought it for its motor and clutches. I put up with the fact that the hood rubs and wears the finish, that the seat rubbed on the rivets and wore holes in the cover. that the front end bushings where loose from day one, that the handling of the sled was so scary I had to lower the front, increase ski pressure to the extreeme along with a stiffer sway bar just so I could keep it from rolling and mine was an improved version, the 03 was insane!
I have never thought the fit and finish of the Cats I owned and still own was perfect but I never thought it was bad either. My family that had and have Cats and Doo's never though the fit and finish was bad nor have I.
I think when we talk build quality, Yami if anything tends to over build and make things heavier then they need to be (Nytro front ends are an exception). This fact (overbuild) to me is not a bad thing.
To those who think F+F makes the Yamaha sleds better then the others need to do a bit of a rethink. It may make them look prettier in some people minds but It took Yami how long to make handwarmers that work. Yet Cat which in some peoples minds has poor fit and finish got that one right! Take a look at all our little issues with Yami and most of them are little. F+F never stopped them from happening!
Now my latest Yami is a damn fine sled! I have no real complaints other then the mirrors make removing the headlight pod a nightmare. The idler wheel placement sucks along with the need for larger wheels of fancy slides. But over all I really like the sled and am quite happy with it. Yami did a good job on the XTX!
Cat has a good chassis and can learn from Yami on F+F but F+F is not the be all end all of sleds. IMHO!
sgauthier
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
- Messages
- 841
- Reaction score
- 161
- Points
- 1,058
- Location
- southwest, Ontario
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- 2011 Apex XTX
to the OP.
to answer your question.
I CARE AND I'M THE ONE PAYING FOR IT WITH MY HARD EARNED MONEY SO IT BETTER MEET MY STANDARDS OTHERWISE I WILL NOT BUY IT. I WOULD NEVER BUY A NEW OR USED CAR/TRUCK WITH THE PANELS MISALIGNED OR THE PAINT ALL SCRATCHED UP/FADED. WHY SHOULD I LOWER MY STANDARDS BECAUSE IT'S A SNOWMOBILE?
to answer your question.
I CARE AND I'M THE ONE PAYING FOR IT WITH MY HARD EARNED MONEY SO IT BETTER MEET MY STANDARDS OTHERWISE I WILL NOT BUY IT. I WOULD NEVER BUY A NEW OR USED CAR/TRUCK WITH THE PANELS MISALIGNED OR THE PAINT ALL SCRATCHED UP/FADED. WHY SHOULD I LOWER MY STANDARDS BECAUSE IT'S A SNOWMOBILE?
grubf
Pro
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2008
- Messages
- 147
- Reaction score
- 34
- Points
- 713
Wow - its going to be a long summer of fretting at this rate. I'm not going to worry about it. Both AC and Yammy have a lot at stake here. Plus this arrangement didn't happen overnight. Everything will be fine. The Cat chassis is a winner. A litttle refining by Yammi will make it shine. Looking forward to next season on my Viper. Anyone worried about F&F or anything else doesn't have to order one.
