Boston RX1
TY 4 Stroke Master
Let me first state that I am not trying to bad mouth Yamaha through this post. I just need a little direction. Here are the facts. I have an 03 RX1. I have about 4,400 miles so far. I have started to use oil at a rate of 1 quart per 200-300 miles at 3,000 miles. I took it to the dealer to have it checked out. This is what I was told. They talked to Yamaha and Yamaha said that there is a problem with the 03 rings. Inorder for us to have these changed, we need the owner to ride 300 miles this weekend after an oil change to see the problem first hand. I know this sounds logical, but from my prospective, I know what it is doing. Why should I run another 300 miles, especially when we are out of snow. Second, the dealer said a group of them were going far north this weekend he could ride my sled. I said, no way in Hec are you going to ride my sled. I don't need the liability issues and don't want someone else to put any miles on my sled. The only other alternative was to ride it next season and have the dealer keep accurate records and then tear the engine appart mid-season. I told him you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that will not fly. The season is to short as it is. Then I agreed with the last suggestion only with him giving me an 06 to ride. He said that will never happen. What is my next step. Don't they have some other way of testing these engines other than ride and see. Also, I could go out this weekend and siphon the oil out and it would prove nothing. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I do have the extended warranty.
smokeless1
Pro
Sounds like a yamaha answer. They won't believe the consumer, and have to verify everything themselves even tho they know that there is history on bad rings.
You have to get tougher with them. Don't take no for an answer, and....tell them that NOW is the time to fix it not during the narrow window of sleding in the USA.
This is an insulting process that Yamaha takes to verify what has already been proven by numerous other 03 ring problems. I know that some people have bogus claims, but really if they ever expect you to buy another yamaha sled, they must treat you right AFTER the sale as well as before the sale.
It is a shame you have to go to those lengths to get this done. Stick to your guns and remember that the squeeky wheel gets the oil. Always.
You have to get tougher with them. Don't take no for an answer, and....tell them that NOW is the time to fix it not during the narrow window of sleding in the USA.
This is an insulting process that Yamaha takes to verify what has already been proven by numerous other 03 ring problems. I know that some people have bogus claims, but really if they ever expect you to buy another yamaha sled, they must treat you right AFTER the sale as well as before the sale.
It is a shame you have to go to those lengths to get this done. Stick to your guns and remember that the squeeky wheel gets the oil. Always.
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Dana,
The dealer can test the engine without riding it. Its called leakdown and compression tests. Compression tests just that- the ability to build compression. Low compression during a compression test indicates that compression isn't building, indicating a major problem- broken ring(s), bad head gasket, broken piston, bad valve, etc. A leakdown test checks to see how bad the leak is. Its measured as a percentage, with 10% being the high end of normal for most engines. They can also tell where the problem is by listening for the air leak. If the air gets into the crankcase, they know its either rings or a bad head gasket. If its a valve, they can hear it through either the intake or exhaust. Because you are using oil, you already know what the problem is (rings) but a leakdown test will check how bad.
I finally heard from my dealer about my case. The compression test wasn't too bad, but I had 25-30% leakdown across all 4 cylinders! First Yamaha told them that they were only going to cover parts, because "it could have been poor break-in that caused it" (cop-out?) until I reminded him that the service rep told me parts AND labor would be covered. Another call to Yamaha got it straightened out, and they should start work on it soon (I hope!) Remember, this sled has been down since the day after I rode with you...what was that, mid Feb.? Its been at the dealer since the end of Feb., and they haven't even taken anything apart yet! Don't let them wait until next season...have it done over the summer so it doesn't ruin your season.
Jim
The dealer can test the engine without riding it. Its called leakdown and compression tests. Compression tests just that- the ability to build compression. Low compression during a compression test indicates that compression isn't building, indicating a major problem- broken ring(s), bad head gasket, broken piston, bad valve, etc. A leakdown test checks to see how bad the leak is. Its measured as a percentage, with 10% being the high end of normal for most engines. They can also tell where the problem is by listening for the air leak. If the air gets into the crankcase, they know its either rings or a bad head gasket. If its a valve, they can hear it through either the intake or exhaust. Because you are using oil, you already know what the problem is (rings) but a leakdown test will check how bad.
I finally heard from my dealer about my case. The compression test wasn't too bad, but I had 25-30% leakdown across all 4 cylinders! First Yamaha told them that they were only going to cover parts, because "it could have been poor break-in that caused it" (cop-out?) until I reminded him that the service rep told me parts AND labor would be covered. Another call to Yamaha got it straightened out, and they should start work on it soon (I hope!) Remember, this sled has been down since the day after I rode with you...what was that, mid Feb.? Its been at the dealer since the end of Feb., and they haven't even taken anything apart yet! Don't let them wait until next season...have it done over the summer so it doesn't ruin your season.
Jim
impalapower
TY 4 Stroke God
Is Yamaha covering sleds not under warranty? Also, why do they want fresh oil and 300 miles on the sled and then look at it.
Boston RX1
TY 4 Stroke Master
Yamaha wants the dealer to see it first hand. This does not make sense because they are wanting me to ride it. If I was dishonest, you can bet the oil would be lower either way, so that proves nothing. I have no knowledge that they are interested in non-warranty sleds. The good thing is that they did acknowledge that there is an issues with the rings.
IGO4SNO
Newbie
keep on them and dont let up be a pain in there a$$
or find a dealer that will go to bat for you.they will listen to the dealer if he is in good standing with them.
or find a dealer that will go to bat for you.they will listen to the dealer if he is in good standing with them.
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
For my particular case I insisted that they cover it because I had logged a complaint 3 weeks (roughly 600-700 miles) after buying the sled brand new, and was told it was normal (low oil light came on while on the trail at under 700 miles). The second season I logged a complaint while the sled was under warranty when it was using a quart every 300-400 miles. Again, they said it was normal. Well you better believe that they would be covering it this time, or I was going to go after them with an attorney (located one that said I had an excellent case).
I believe there may be some case by case coverage for a few sleds that are off warranty, but I think it depends a lot on the dealer and how much they want to go out of their way to help you. In BostonRX's case, hes still under warranty, so I think he should get it done ASAP. And since he has the extended warranty, I'll be curious to see if the problem is fixed for good, and if not, will they stand behind the repairs.
Jim
I believe there may be some case by case coverage for a few sleds that are off warranty, but I think it depends a lot on the dealer and how much they want to go out of their way to help you. In BostonRX's case, hes still under warranty, so I think he should get it done ASAP. And since he has the extended warranty, I'll be curious to see if the problem is fixed for good, and if not, will they stand behind the repairs.
Jim
Yamaha shooting themselves in the foot again. What are they to gain in market share if they start losing the ones they already have. I wish Honda made sleds that should make them smarten up.
Yammerhead
Expert
Boston RX1 said:
Maybe because I work for a manufacturer (not snowmobiles), I have a different perspective than most. I think Yamaha is doing OK for you so far. Do you expect them to just say oh, you are using a bit of oil, i guess we should rebuild your engine for you!! If that was the case, evey Tom, Dick and Harry would be walking in the door right before their warranty ran out with the same story looking for a fresh engine. There are a lot of dishonest people out there and warranty claims are VERY costly to a manufacturer. When these costs are coming right off the bottom line for the company you can bet they are going to make darn sure claims a valid.
Now, you have a warranty agreement with Yamaha and I strongly believe they should stand behind it and fix what is needed. However, the only way for them to logistically do it is have some formal process to follow. It's a hoop for you to jump through, but you know what, it will weed out 90% of the clowns who are looking for something for free. I would have let the dealer take my sled. Sounds to me like he was willing to work with you to find a solution for you. If he documented the oil consumption on the ride, he could have had it fixed over the summer and you would have been ready to go next fall. Now he is thinking, I tried to help, but you were not open to it, is there a reason why he didn't want me to monitor his oil consumption? Leakdown tests and compression tests are a good indicator of engine wear, but the results of them can be manipulated as well. Put a drop of engine oil on your cylinder head and see what it does to the leakdown and compression results. Engine temp, guage error, operator error, valve leakage, and other stuff can affect the results. Real world riding is going to be the most accurate.
Here is a tidbit for you. My company's warranty policy is that when someone has a claim, they have to BUY a new one. We examine the damaged device and if it is deemed warranty, we credit the cost of the new device. I don't totally agree with this procedure, but it is a direct result of customers abusing warrantty claims.
Anyway, I know you are looking for advice. My advice is to document everything and be very professional with your dealer and Yamaha. Definately stick up for yourself as you should not be burning that much oil. If it is documented in black and white, then Yamaha will be much more likely to make it right with you....
Sorry for the rant, but there are two sides to every situation and Yamaha has a business to run. People jump on their soapboxes right away threating lawyers and the wrath of God without thinking how the other side is seeing the situation. They are just as many dishonest consumers as there are manufacturers. It's unfortunate, but a fact of life.
Good luck with your claim. I'm glad to hear that Yamaha is admitting there is an issue with oil consumption as it has been a frequently discussed issue on this board.
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I understand both sides, and I can see what you are saying, but as an engine machinist I have to say that anything can be tested with the proper equipment without putting 300 miles on a customer's sled. 300 miles on a car isn't much, but 300 miles on a sled is a lot when many people only put 1000 on in a season.
You make a good point about people putting in false claims about oil use, but again, simple testing will sort them out. If they have a claim about consumption and test show good compression and leakdown, then more in depth diagnosis would be needed before getting involved in a rebuild. But if the customer is complaining of oil use and either the compression or leakdown tests show a problem, obviously the customer isn't trying to pull one over on the dealer.
As for the practice of dealers making the customers pay in advance, I used to work at a dealership that had this policy, and I felt it was very, very wrong. When I have a warranty, I want my vehicle fixed. That IS why we spend so much for brand new vehicles, isn't it? I shouldn't have to caugh up the bucks for a replacement part before the dealer even looks at the vehicle. Tear it down, find the problem, and if it turns out to NOT be covered, then charge the customer.
And I hope you weren';t referring to my example when you talked about jumping right in with lawyers. I have spent 3 years dealing with Yamaha on this matter, since my sled was less than a month old. The first season I tried very nicely dealing with the selling dealer. Second season I used a bit more pressure after the dealer flat out refused to even look at the sled. I tried talking with Yamaha in a nice way and explaining the issue. That didn't work. This season my sled was unridable after 2 seasons, with only 220 miles on it this year. My problems were all documented, and Yamaha was clearly just trying to avoid the problem. I'm still fighting to get this resolved.
I'm just trying to give opinions based on my experience dealing with Yamaha and their dealer network. 3 years, 3 dealers, and I'm still trying to get it resolved. I just don't want BostonRX to be in my position next year with a sled down for the whole season and nobody doing anything about it.
Jim
You make a good point about people putting in false claims about oil use, but again, simple testing will sort them out. If they have a claim about consumption and test show good compression and leakdown, then more in depth diagnosis would be needed before getting involved in a rebuild. But if the customer is complaining of oil use and either the compression or leakdown tests show a problem, obviously the customer isn't trying to pull one over on the dealer.
As for the practice of dealers making the customers pay in advance, I used to work at a dealership that had this policy, and I felt it was very, very wrong. When I have a warranty, I want my vehicle fixed. That IS why we spend so much for brand new vehicles, isn't it? I shouldn't have to caugh up the bucks for a replacement part before the dealer even looks at the vehicle. Tear it down, find the problem, and if it turns out to NOT be covered, then charge the customer.
And I hope you weren';t referring to my example when you talked about jumping right in with lawyers. I have spent 3 years dealing with Yamaha on this matter, since my sled was less than a month old. The first season I tried very nicely dealing with the selling dealer. Second season I used a bit more pressure after the dealer flat out refused to even look at the sled. I tried talking with Yamaha in a nice way and explaining the issue. That didn't work. This season my sled was unridable after 2 seasons, with only 220 miles on it this year. My problems were all documented, and Yamaha was clearly just trying to avoid the problem. I'm still fighting to get this resolved.
I'm just trying to give opinions based on my experience dealing with Yamaha and their dealer network. 3 years, 3 dealers, and I'm still trying to get it resolved. I just don't want BostonRX to be in my position next year with a sled down for the whole season and nobody doing anything about it.
Jim
Boston RX1
TY 4 Stroke Master
YH, I do agree with you. The point I was trying to make was what they are asking my to do, does not prove a thing. If Yamaha wants to run the machine to see for themselves, fine. I just felt there should be some sort of test to run on the engine in the shop to find out what is going on. We put a man on the moon, can't we do a test to find out what is happening with our engines? There is no sense me proving what I already know.
Well, I just heard from the dealer. The leakdown test was less than 2%. He said up to 10% was within spec. They are going to do a compression test on Tuesday. I would not mind riding the 300 miles if it would prove something, but having me take the sled and ride, does not prove a thing. If they come up with something that proves one way or the other, I am all for it. I will keep you informed.
Well, I just heard from the dealer. The leakdown test was less than 2%. He said up to 10% was within spec. They are going to do a compression test on Tuesday. I would not mind riding the 300 miles if it would prove something, but having me take the sled and ride, does not prove a thing. If they come up with something that proves one way or the other, I am all for it. I will keep you informed.
Oak Hill
VIP Member
Yammerhead - I totally agree with you. I have 29 years experience in Auto Dealerships. What they are asking for is documentation, proof that it is burning oil. You just cannot do a repair just because the customer states there is a problem. It has to be duplicated and documented. It sounds like to me that this Dealer was willing to work with you, to help you out and you refused. You have been bashing Yamaha and been doing it alot and in reality you are creating your own grief by not working with the Dealers. Why would anybody leave there sled at a dealer waiting for a seat and blame Yamaha that their sled was tied up for a month. Ride the sled and when the seat comes in, take it in for repair. I am sure you could of waited for the repair at the Dealer and been back riding the sled the same day. I just get real tired of people just blaming everybody but themselfs for thier problems. I am sure you will have at me, but I am sure that thier are alot of other people on this site that feel the same way.
ATTITUDE Is EVERY THING!
ATTITUDE Is EVERY THING!
Boston RX1
TY 4 Stroke Master
Oak, I am not sure who your reply was directed at. I have proof that the sled is burning oil. I am willing to work with the dealer, but doing what I have been doing is going to give me the same results. As far as bashing Yamaha, you will not find one post from me that backs up your claim. By Yamaha saying what they did is just putting off the inevitable. I don't need to ride anymore miles to find out what I already know. I will do what the dealer needs me to do, if there is positive proof one way or the other that what I do will be beneficial. Me riding another 300 miles proves absolutely nothing. If that whats needs to be done, then I will have to wait until next year to find this out.
nhrxrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Boston, I think he was replying to me. And apparently, he hasn't ridden very far sitting on a solid block of ice. I couldn't make the seat cover move if I had used a hammer. And the problem I had with it taking so long was that Yamaha could have had them a seat in 3 days if they had only done what I had asked, and contacted Yamaha in the beginning about the seat updates. But they wouldn't even listen. And although I use this forum to vent, I treat my dealers very well when I go there, am always polite, and try to keep a good attitude. Do you really think its right that it takes over a month to do two simple tests?
I'm going to shut up and stop responding to this thread, because this isn't helping Boston at all. He asked if something could test the engine without having the sled ridden 300 miles, and I pointed out thats what compression and leakdown tests are for. If they turn out normal, then I would suspect there is a bad seal or some other place the oil is going, and THEN the dealer might need to actually ride the sled. But if the tests had shown a problem (as my 25-30% showed), then there would be no need to put 300 miles on, they already found the problem. And in Boston's case, he seems to be getting treated very well, even if I don't agree with riding the sled.
Jim
I'm going to shut up and stop responding to this thread, because this isn't helping Boston at all. He asked if something could test the engine without having the sled ridden 300 miles, and I pointed out thats what compression and leakdown tests are for. If they turn out normal, then I would suspect there is a bad seal or some other place the oil is going, and THEN the dealer might need to actually ride the sled. But if the tests had shown a problem (as my 25-30% showed), then there would be no need to put 300 miles on, they already found the problem. And in Boston's case, he seems to be getting treated very well, even if I don't agree with riding the sled.
Jim
A K MtnViper
Extreme
Oil Usage
I'm using about 1 qt per 200-300 miles.
Out of warrenty of course. Has anyone not fixed their sled and just kept riding. :? It does not bother me to add a qt of oil every 200+ miles and unless the rings break later on what harm could it do? I hate to spend money when my sled is running really well. My only other complaint is it looks a little too much like a two stroke going down the trail. 
I'm using about 1 qt per 200-300 miles.
Out of warrenty of course. Has anyone not fixed their sled and just kept riding. :? It does not bother me to add a qt of oil every 200+ miles and unless the rings break later on what harm could it do? I hate to spend money when my sled is running really well. My only other complaint is it looks a little too much like a two stroke going down the trail. 
