kinger
VIP Member
Trying to get the sled wrapped up but ran into a distraction. My meth injection system threw me for a loop. I think it was a matter of wrong expectations. In my head I was thinking that water/meth flow would linearly and discretely from say 5% duty to 95% duty on the solenoid. NOPE I went through a lot of trouble shooting before finally setting up a volume test rig which was partially connected to BOB and a combination of tubes and plastic catch bins lol. After a lot of head scratching and learning on my part I finally called Pro Meth and they confirmed that what I was seeing was legit. SO I learned that water meth is not really that progressive, think of it like your die hard right winged uncle that even if you are on the same side of, you still can't politics to him...
I tested my solenoid at 10-40 Hz freq and 20-80% duties, over 50 tests today.
I learned that it works best at 30Hz and doesn't even turn on until 31% duty and by 35% is medium, and 40% its full flow.
So that means its really more of a on/off function than ramping up the water slowly with boost as I was hoping. ProMeth also said I have the best solenoid in the business for response too. There is no upgrade unless you switch to a fuel injector. Hmmm if that was a option I may have tried that!
Ok so moving on I am extremely happy I did this actual testing. My meth injection table I made up before this was way off and I wouldn't have even been spraying meth as a lot of my cells had 20% in there. This was worth the time.
The snubber tube works fantastic! I get 180 psi of pressure pre solenoid and about 70 psi when spraying. It varies between 65-75 psi and that's it. So I can easily set up a warning at say 50 psi now! YAY mission accomplished.
Next thing I learned that if the meth tank goes dry, it will NOT prime again on its own, I have to break the line at the snubber tube, and then it will prime the next time, it gets air locked. Also really good to know so that if I by chance ran out of meth on the trail, then limped it home to fill it up and hoping go for a rip and its not actually flowing anything!
Time to button up the sled already!!
I tested my solenoid at 10-40 Hz freq and 20-80% duties, over 50 tests today.
I learned that it works best at 30Hz and doesn't even turn on until 31% duty and by 35% is medium, and 40% its full flow.
So that means its really more of a on/off function than ramping up the water slowly with boost as I was hoping. ProMeth also said I have the best solenoid in the business for response too. There is no upgrade unless you switch to a fuel injector. Hmmm if that was a option I may have tried that!
Ok so moving on I am extremely happy I did this actual testing. My meth injection table I made up before this was way off and I wouldn't have even been spraying meth as a lot of my cells had 20% in there. This was worth the time.
The snubber tube works fantastic! I get 180 psi of pressure pre solenoid and about 70 psi when spraying. It varies between 65-75 psi and that's it. So I can easily set up a warning at say 50 psi now! YAY mission accomplished.
Next thing I learned that if the meth tank goes dry, it will NOT prime again on its own, I have to break the line at the snubber tube, and then it will prime the next time, it gets air locked. Also really good to know so that if I by chance ran out of meth on the trail, then limped it home to fill it up and hoping go for a rip and its not actually flowing anything!
Time to button up the sled already!!
kinger
VIP Member
Been busy, almost ready! First trip at the end of the month!!
kinger
VIP Member
Long vid showing how hard it is to tune from scratch. Hoping to be in Wi end of the month on this thing!!
kinger
VIP Member
Been working hard on the "Hard tuning" which is slow speed stuff and lambda control, cold start etc. I have a plan coming up and wanted to document:
1. Cold start issues - I finally got a data log during cold start and my voltage is dropping well below 9.5V and according to most anything below that Voltage the sled will not start. I am using the beast Antigravity ATX-20HD battery because I knew I would be challenging the voltage on this system so I am disappointed it doesn't work great in the cold, BUT it is lithium after all and we all know they can be a challenge.
ACTION: When the sled finally started guess what the voltage dropped to...9.7V so that means I need some sort of warming circuit or a AGM battery replacement. Since this battery is a power house I would like to keep it compared to say PC310 AGM battery which is plan B. I think i am going to add hand warmers stuck on to the oil tank and battery. Before starting the sled I am going to turn those on and let the current warm the inside battery (and side benefit put a little of that heat in the oil and battery) and let it sit for a period of time that I will have to measure. Shut it off then start. This will be a direct connection to the battery. In the future once I know how long it needs to be on for I can program the Motec to turn this one when I turn the key based on coolant temp (ie don't turn it on if the sled is warm) and treat it almost like a diesel glow plug.
VERIFICATION: I will test with a booster pack making sure my voltage stays above 9.5V and if the sled starts easier then I know I have found something that will help.
2. I signed up for Motec training through evans academy and I am learning nuggets one of which was the fact that my ID injectors can be set up based on fuel pressure, right now my fuel table is based on ID1000s and I have ID1050X which are slightly different so I need to rectify this.
ACTION: I ordered a new fuel pressure sensor (the vid above you can hear me bellowing that its flipping out) and I ordered a new wiring pigtail from my quality source at Ballenger Motorsports. I think I have a cheap amazon pigtail on the fuel sensor and the fuel sensor came with the kit used and I have no idea the origin of it. So best to start fresh especially now that my injector open time will be based on different fuel pressures. This should help clean up a LOT of things where the pulse width is just not right and the motec is trying to correct it. It worked ok last year in a TPS based format but it's time to take advantage of these sensors and get good data in for the Motec to use. I can set a default value if the new sensor flakes out for some reason so I can still run the sled.
3. Fuel Accel tables are a mess and I think it was my own dumb fault for firstly NOT dialing in the main fuel table which everything is based on in the Motec. So I am going to zero those out and work the main fuel table. I also learned about a setting in the motec that may help when dealing with the Apex individual throttle bodies. Can't thank the Evans Academy enough here. The vids are quality and I after playing with it for a couple years hunting and pecking I am finally seeing it all come together with the vids. Worth the $300 for sure.
4. Boost control is still spiking I am beyond frustrated now. I am just going to hook the IC directly to the bottom of both gates and see if I can get it to ride on gate. Then I know my issue is the 4 port solenoid. I went to the 1.06 AR housing on the turbo and smaller SC pulley and none of it helped on my short test run, I do need more space to make sure I am not seeing a temporary spike then have it level out with continued WOT.
Lastly there is no body work on it, I NEED to get this buttoned up and ready to ride by the 26th for my first trip! Really excited to get it out in the wild and see how it does on my favorite trails. Probably bring a backpack and laptop just to make sure I can fine tune things at the bar stops LOL
1. Cold start issues - I finally got a data log during cold start and my voltage is dropping well below 9.5V and according to most anything below that Voltage the sled will not start. I am using the beast Antigravity ATX-20HD battery because I knew I would be challenging the voltage on this system so I am disappointed it doesn't work great in the cold, BUT it is lithium after all and we all know they can be a challenge.
ACTION: When the sled finally started guess what the voltage dropped to...9.7V so that means I need some sort of warming circuit or a AGM battery replacement. Since this battery is a power house I would like to keep it compared to say PC310 AGM battery which is plan B. I think i am going to add hand warmers stuck on to the oil tank and battery. Before starting the sled I am going to turn those on and let the current warm the inside battery (and side benefit put a little of that heat in the oil and battery) and let it sit for a period of time that I will have to measure. Shut it off then start. This will be a direct connection to the battery. In the future once I know how long it needs to be on for I can program the Motec to turn this one when I turn the key based on coolant temp (ie don't turn it on if the sled is warm) and treat it almost like a diesel glow plug.
VERIFICATION: I will test with a booster pack making sure my voltage stays above 9.5V and if the sled starts easier then I know I have found something that will help.
2. I signed up for Motec training through evans academy and I am learning nuggets one of which was the fact that my ID injectors can be set up based on fuel pressure, right now my fuel table is based on ID1000s and I have ID1050X which are slightly different so I need to rectify this.
ACTION: I ordered a new fuel pressure sensor (the vid above you can hear me bellowing that its flipping out) and I ordered a new wiring pigtail from my quality source at Ballenger Motorsports. I think I have a cheap amazon pigtail on the fuel sensor and the fuel sensor came with the kit used and I have no idea the origin of it. So best to start fresh especially now that my injector open time will be based on different fuel pressures. This should help clean up a LOT of things where the pulse width is just not right and the motec is trying to correct it. It worked ok last year in a TPS based format but it's time to take advantage of these sensors and get good data in for the Motec to use. I can set a default value if the new sensor flakes out for some reason so I can still run the sled.
3. Fuel Accel tables are a mess and I think it was my own dumb fault for firstly NOT dialing in the main fuel table which everything is based on in the Motec. So I am going to zero those out and work the main fuel table. I also learned about a setting in the motec that may help when dealing with the Apex individual throttle bodies. Can't thank the Evans Academy enough here. The vids are quality and I after playing with it for a couple years hunting and pecking I am finally seeing it all come together with the vids. Worth the $300 for sure.
4. Boost control is still spiking I am beyond frustrated now. I am just going to hook the IC directly to the bottom of both gates and see if I can get it to ride on gate. Then I know my issue is the 4 port solenoid. I went to the 1.06 AR housing on the turbo and smaller SC pulley and none of it helped on my short test run, I do need more space to make sure I am not seeing a temporary spike then have it level out with continued WOT.
Lastly there is no body work on it, I NEED to get this buttoned up and ready to ride by the 26th for my first trip! Really excited to get it out in the wild and see how it does on my favorite trails. Probably bring a backpack and laptop just to make sure I can fine tune things at the bar stops LOL
Sounds like a good plan to get on track. You were brave for taking on something as complex as this without the training, but now you have experience and training will just help guide that to the right results.
On your handwarmers. I am using silicon heating pads with programmable DC convertors, much better than hand warmers (more forgiving) and you can dial your own output. They are simple, cheap, small, and for all intents and purposes disposable so they are a good bridge between the battery and whatever you are trying to control.
Good luck getting everything done. Thats a lot to take on. Will you have access to a dyno or you going to butt dyno for now?
kinger
VIP Member
Could you point me to a product like what your talking about for a heater and a DC controller?
Both! Dyno and Butt, lots of waiting on Dyno. Hate that but it is what it is. I keep pestering...
Could you point me to a product like what your talking about for a heater and a DC controller?
Both! Dyno and Butt, lots of waiting on Dyno. Hate that but it is what it is. I keep pestering...
Depends on how much warming you want. For low current (say up to 5a or 60w)
DC-DC buck converter
Just choose a current capacity that matches your output. I have 15w pads, the converter lets me dial in heat. This was originally for warming an ipad but same idea. The ones I have will handle up to 60w, i have a couple laying around that can handle 120w. The silicon pads heat up fast.
To handle big pads you may want to look into something more sophisticated. For up to that 60w limit these things are tiny.
kinger
VIP Member
Ahh ok thanks. I don't need it to be adjustable, I Have a unused hard grip kit here on a toggle switch, I will try that as a test this year then net year automate it with the Motec. I am thinking it will need to be on about 30 seconds then I will try cranking. I also set up a warning on my display for Voltage that will indicate to me to stop cranking once below 9.5V. I tested cold again watching voltage and it started MUCH better. Also got my cranking fuel dialed in a little bit. Not perfect but I am making headway and that makes it fun again!
kinger
VIP Member
Rigged up a handwarmer circuit with 5 ohm (two warmers in parallel) drawing 2.5 amps and let it sit on there for a couple minutes. Battery still dropped out under 9.5V when cranking so I let off. Took 4 cranks and the sled did fire better but its warm out at 18F. It started like it was -20. The Lithium battery is tough, I think its low now (12.2V spec is 12.8V) and it wont charge unless its over 32 degrees so I can't even plug it in outside. I may shelf the battery and look for a high power AGM. Odyessy PC310 was recommended. Also don't have fueling dialed so I am fighting two issues here. Probably going to bring back to the shop and shelve the cold start testing for now. On my trip I will bring a jump pack if its cold in the morning.
kinger
VIP Member
Ok progress! It got cold today so I went back. Let battery warm for 3 minutes and dialed in some fueling ahead of time with data logs and the sled fired on 3rd crank! 10 degree so not bitter cold yet but this is promising. Tonight it will get down to 3 and tomorrow I’ll put my lithium jump pack on it and try it to see if I can prevent the. Voltage drop out. Then I know my fuel is good and I just need to babysit the battery a little.
I’m happy it’s starting much easier. It needed more fuel.
I’m happy it’s starting much easier. It needed more fuel.
kinger
VIP Member
Took the day off today and I am excited to say I fixed all issues! The sled trail tuned and will work just for my trip at the end of the month. I will do a full video of what happened, it was a long week of head scratching and testing but its hard to express how excited I am right now!
Summary:
1. Cold starts are battery being cold and voltage drop outs not fuel settings
2. Meth system works perfectly and saved my bacon today when I gave BOB ALL BOOOOOOOST inadvertently
3. I HAVE BOOST CONTROL!!! It also happens to work VERY GOOD!!
4. Turbos do not like back pressure (duh) I finally figured out my exhaust cut out was choking the turbo and I set up a table that is based on not only boost pressure (like it was) but ALSO throttle position, so if I am 80% or higher it will open at any MAP psi and this thing spools like a FREIGHT TRAIN!! No joke! I logged 7 psi to 30 psi in 0.4 seconds!
5. Fueling is so much better! I should post a picture of my before and after. I have no spikes anywhere except when I let out of a WOT pull which is normal. The sled is responsive and a pure ripper!
6. Crank case EVAC works perfectly! I had a lot of pressure last year and I am also impressed with myself that I thought to add that from the OEM parts pile. I can actually see in the datalog when that valve opens it pulls ALL the pressure out of the crankcase! This will help ring seal, and many other things. Love this mod!
Overall I am now saying that I have completed the hard part of building the sled, and adding these electronics, to then making sure the motec was doing everything right (the worst part if I am honest). Everything works, sled is at 20 psi for now and if I can get to a dyno I will be able to finger tap the exact key I need to get the sled to do what I want and max it out with timing and boost in a controlled environment.
I love the exhaust valve, probably the best idea I had at the last minute, the sled goes from quiet nice, to insane A hole in less then half a second and at the control of my thumb! It sounds soooo wicked!!!
Sled is back in the shop for final fitting of the body work and some misc small things, maybe plugs and another oil change (fuel smell in oil from cold rich starts)
I will have two vids coming out one showing the tuning wrap up and 2nd on the unveiling of the new look, I have been coy about not showing the front of the sled in my tuning vids
"Gunna be a gooooood day..."
Summary:
1. Cold starts are battery being cold and voltage drop outs not fuel settings
2. Meth system works perfectly and saved my bacon today when I gave BOB ALL BOOOOOOOST inadvertently
3. I HAVE BOOST CONTROL!!! It also happens to work VERY GOOD!!
4. Turbos do not like back pressure (duh) I finally figured out my exhaust cut out was choking the turbo and I set up a table that is based on not only boost pressure (like it was) but ALSO throttle position, so if I am 80% or higher it will open at any MAP psi and this thing spools like a FREIGHT TRAIN!! No joke! I logged 7 psi to 30 psi in 0.4 seconds!
5. Fueling is so much better! I should post a picture of my before and after. I have no spikes anywhere except when I let out of a WOT pull which is normal. The sled is responsive and a pure ripper!
6. Crank case EVAC works perfectly! I had a lot of pressure last year and I am also impressed with myself that I thought to add that from the OEM parts pile. I can actually see in the datalog when that valve opens it pulls ALL the pressure out of the crankcase! This will help ring seal, and many other things. Love this mod!
Overall I am now saying that I have completed the hard part of building the sled, and adding these electronics, to then making sure the motec was doing everything right (the worst part if I am honest). Everything works, sled is at 20 psi for now and if I can get to a dyno I will be able to finger tap the exact key I need to get the sled to do what I want and max it out with timing and boost in a controlled environment.
I love the exhaust valve, probably the best idea I had at the last minute, the sled goes from quiet nice, to insane A hole in less then half a second and at the control of my thumb! It sounds soooo wicked!!!
Sled is back in the shop for final fitting of the body work and some misc small things, maybe plugs and another oil change (fuel smell in oil from cold rich starts)
I will have two vids coming out one showing the tuning wrap up and 2nd on the unveiling of the new look, I have been coy about not showing the front of the sled in my tuning vids
"Gunna be a gooooood day..."
VIDEO!!
Stubbs
TY 4 Stroke Master
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2006
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- 1,132
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- Uxbridge, On, Can.
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- ‘16 Apex XTX with 137” Mono II
+ other gooodies
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I can’t even talk to my PCV and you iron all of this mess out. Well done!
