New 2017 Yamaha Sleds...

[Heritage]

I'm a huge fan of the viper, but even I have to give fit and finish to the Apex. The rear clips for the hood never snapped into the gas tank plastic well and definitely don't stay in my turbo'd version with the air box interference. The tri-hub is a liability and very poor design. The ECU and starter issues are just plain inexcusable...

That said, I still say Viper a huge improvement to the Apex. We own both and the Viper ride is no contest better. EPS is nice but the viper doesn't steer that hard at all unless you start changing skis. Don't get me wrong, I'd take it if it were available. If apex is so great, why are the dealers not ordering more than a couple a year these days. Talked to a couple dealers recently and the consensus was order 1/3 or less the number of Apexes to vipers. Apex is not selling for many of the reasons already identified throughout the sleds. Apex doesn't turn well in stock form. Ski lift from hell and twitchy! I could take either machine and spend the same amount of money in mods to get a good riding machine. The huge difference is the base cost of the models. I've spent far less in my viper to get it to perform than I would an Apex after initial sled purchase.

I'm hopeful that the collaboration will make both companies better. AC recognized Yamaha's fit and finish in that interview. Yamaha acknowledged their dated nature. Yamaha is not proactive or visionary where AC is as acknowledged by Yamaha. AC fit and finish is still not up to par. Viper is a good stepping stone but they can do better. I'm hopeful for a joint chassis that will be Apex quality with Viper ride and have all the features as options across the serious editions that have been identified as wish lists above... True blue hasn't given us an amazing new machine in well over a decade. Maybe Blue and Green will.

I wouldn't call it a "HUGE improvement"over the apex...it depends what you are looking for...I haven't spent anything on my apex...at all...it's completely stock, other than dually's...I happen to like the apex sitting position...my xtx is a big improvement over my 07 attaks I owned (one GT and one standard)...there are things they could improve on...like rear skid...but my xtx handles far flatter than either of the attaks, and it turns quite well (maybe mines set-up better than the one you rode?? dunno)....the eps makes it a joy to drive on tight wooded trails...and it just plain rips... IMO the viper feels flat and lacks the mid range punch, and top end of the apex...not saying the viper is bad...the guys who have them seem to love them...they look cool, and ride nice....but nothing puts a smile on my face like this 4 cylinder does....I know a lot of apex riders who feel the same way.

 

[gytr done]

Just as I wrote that first post, I turned on the CBC and bombardier is announcing job cuts, 7000 of them 2000 in Montreal.

 

[gytr done]

Please Yamaha Viper, don't make me laugh. May handle good but that's it, cold start issues, hot start issues, fit n finish issues, starter issues, rod issues and now the lower drive shaft ripping itself out from the chassis. To me this has been the worst product ever. Doesn't even compare to the King.

 

[number1kyster]

Careful. Both 7000 and Viper clutching suck out of factory. AC clutches break belts. Viper fails to shift all the way out causing half the lack of top end. Three belts pay for clutching kit and filing to fix Yamaha's clutch... Shock calibration in the 2015 and older viper was far worse than AC. Yamaha didn't understand or do a good job in valving the shocks for the chassis causing them to ride incredibly stiff. Most acknowledged the 7000 to have a better ride out of box. I spent too much money correcting that. Was valved for someone weighing in access of 250LBS naked. Can't speak for the 16 suspension or clutch.

I've heard the 2016 cats with the QS3 shocks ride incredible.

 

[STAIN]

Just as I wrote that first post, I turned on the CBC and bombardier is announcing job cuts, 7000 of them 2000 in Montreal.

Ouch!! that is not good news for anyone.

 

[4StrokeAddict]

I wouldn't call it a "HUGE improvement"over the apex...it depends what you are looking for...I haven't spent anything on my apex...at all...it's completely stock, other than dually's...I happen to like the apex sitting position...my xtx is a big improvement over my 07 attaks I owned (one GT and one standard)...there are things they could improve on...like rear skid...but my xtx handles far flatter than either of the attaks, and it turns quite well (maybe mines set-up better than the one you rode?? dunno)....the eps makes it a joy to drive on tight wooded trails...and it just plain rips... IMO the viper feels flat and lacks the mid range punch, and top end of the apex...not saying the viper is bad...the guys who have them seem to love them...they look cool, and ride nice....but nothing puts a smile on my face like this 4 cylinder does....I know a lot of apex riders who feel the same way.

You are missing my point. I can get on any sled and nit-pick. I have never gotten on a sled and not found something I didn't like. Aftermarket will solve all.

As I've said before, I'm not saying the Apex is a bad machine either. But its an old design that has reached its limit. Seating position is important to ride quality. The fact that the Attack/Warrior/Apex revised their seating position upward and the huge aftermarket to go more upright attests to that. One reason viper ride is so good is it places your body in a natural position to absorb bumps. The only reason I can understand why people don't like viper seating position is it raises the center of gravity making it "feel" tippier. What I quickly learned is that your leaning has a larger effect when your up that high which counteracts that issue. I also learned that you have to anticipate more as the viper's engine is a bit too high in the chassis.

If you don't like the lack of viper power, turbo it. It will kick Apex @$$ and still be cheaper. I like my sled to ride flat. Riding flat means I'm not having to work or get scares as I go around corners. Apex scared the hell out of me the first few rides with its ski lift. Setup helped a bit. I hear front torsion arms fix it...

Either way, there are things about Apex just like there are things about viper that are less than desirable. Both Apex and then Viper took time to learn then like coming off of an XTC. I get annoyed when I hear either one bash the other. Most of the bashers only rode the sled they are bashing for less than a day. At a day, I'm just barely starting to understand the machine. After 500 miles, I'll tell you what I don't like about it. After 1000-1500, I'll finally be comfortable with the machine riding it like a pro.

Hopefully AC/Yamaha knock it out of the park and give us a sweet new ride. Com'on guys, I'm counting pulling for you!

 

[DC5]

Just as I wrote that first post, I turned on the CBC and bombardier is announcing job cuts, 7000 of them 2000 in Montreal.

BRP is a completely seperate company. Bombardier sold off that division in 2003.

 

[STAIN]

Don't you think the Cats have better fit and finish than they did just 3 years ago? I think they are benefitting from this partnership as well. the 16 viper calibrations are said to be much better than the 14. I can't vouche for this as I haven't ridden one but those who have both have said as much

 

[4StrokeAddict]

I've heard the 2016 cats with the QS3 shocks ride incredible.

I hope so. Haven't had a chance to ride one but would love to. They had to do something...

 

[4StrokeAddict]

Don't you think the Cats have better fit and finish than they did just 3 years ago? I think they are benefitting from this partnership as well. the 16 viper calibrations are said to be much better than the 14. I can't vouche for this as I haven't ridden one but those who have both have said as much

I've rode 14's and own a 15. 15 was better than 14 but still not right. I hope they got it figured out for 16. New shocks being pioneered from Fox for the Viper gives me hope.

 

[Snowaddict]

You are missing my point. I can get on any sled and nit-pick. I have never gotten on a sled and not found something I didn't like. Aftermarket will solve all.

As I've said before, I'm not saying the Apex is a bad machine either. But its an old design that has reached its limit. Seating position is important to ride quality. The fact that the Attack/Warrior/Apex revised their seating position upward and the huge aftermarket to go more upright attests to that. One reason viper ride is so good is it places your body in a natural position to absorb bumps. The only reason I can understand why people don't like viper seating position is it raises the center of gravity making it "feel" tippier. What I quickly learned is that your leaning has a larger effect when your up that high which counteracts that issue. I also learned that you have to anticipate more as the viper's engine is a bit too high in the chassis.

If you don't like the lack of viper power, turbo it. It will kick Apex @$$ and still be cheaper. I like my sled to ride flat. Riding flat means I'm not having to work or get scares as I go around corners. Apex scared the hell out of me the first few rides with its ski lift. Setup helped a bit. I hear front torsion arms fix it...

Either way, there are things about Apex just like there are things about viper that are less than desirable. Both Apex and then Viper took time to learn then like coming off of an XTC. I get annoyed when I hear either one bash the other. Most of the bashers only rode the sled they are bashing for less than a day. At a day, I'm just barely starting to understand the machine. After 500 miles, I'll tell you what I don't like about it. After 1000-1500, I'll finally be comfortable with the machine riding it like a pro.

Hopefully AC/Yamaha knock it out of the park and give us a sweet new ride. Com'on guys, I'm counting pulling for you!

A turbo viper will "kick a Apex's #*$&@?" I thought the hp of the turbo viper was equivalent to that of an apex? Are we comparing trail turbo friendly to the Apex? Just asking, not criticizing.

 

[titanrcr]

A turbo viper will "kick a Apex's #*$&@?" I thought the hp of the turbo viper was equivalent to that of an apex? Are we comparing trail turbo friendly to the Apex? Just asking, not criticizing.

That was accurate for sure, I own both and it's no contest.

 

[Snowaddict]

That was accurate for sure, I own both and it's no contest.

So, that's even at the lower boost then? Reason I am asking is I have been waiting for the Apex replacement patiently for a couple of years now. If it doesn't happen again this year, I am considering a turbocharged viper. Just scared about the Viper horror stories, though. Thanks for the info.

 

[4StrokeAddict]

I own both as well. I beat it off the line, in the mid range and am equal at worst on top. Modern Apex=~163HP. Stock Viper =~135HP. MPI Trail Turbo Viper=~185HP.

Bottom end doesn't much matter as both will spin the track with ease. The turbo Viper's mid range punch is way stronger than Apex. Up top, I'm even with an apex (too close to call), but I'm still working on dialing in my clutching. My clutching isn't seeing max RPM on top and my boost is falling off so I'm not making max HP. It doesn't much matter since by the time we both get into the top range, I'm quite a ways in front of the Apex.

 

[titanrcr]

So, that's even at the lower boost then? Reason I am asking is I have been waiting for the Apex replacement patiently for a couple of years now. If it doesn't happen again this year, I am considering a turbocharged viper. Just scared about the Viper horror stories, though. Thanks for the info.

Yes, trail boost. I hear ya on the horror stories. Not the same quality as an Apex. Lets see what they come out with on 3/1.....