New 2017 Yamaha Sleds...

[Heritage]

You are missing my point. I can get on any sled and nit-pick. I have never gotten on a sled and not found something I didn't like. Aftermarket will solve all.

As I've said before, I'm not saying the Apex is a bad machine either. But its an old design that has reached its limit. Seating position is important to ride quality. The fact that the Attack/Warrior/Apex revised their seating position upward and the huge aftermarket to go more upright attests to that. One reason viper ride is so good is it places your body in a natural position to absorb bumps. The only reason I can understand why people don't like viper seating position is it raises the center of gravity making it "feel" tippier. What I quickly learned is that your leaning has a larger effect when your up that high which counteracts that issue. I also learned that you have to anticipate more as the viper's engine is a bit too high in the chassis.

If you don't like the lack of viper power, turbo it. It will kick Apex @$$ and still be cheaper. I like my sled to ride flat. Riding flat means I'm not having to work or get scares as I go around corners. Apex scared the hell out of me the first few rides with its ski lift. Setup helped a bit. I hear front torsion arms fix it...

Either way, there are things about Apex just like there are things about viper that are less than desirable. Both Apex and then Viper took time to learn then like coming off of an XTC. I get annoyed when I hear either one bash the other. Most of the bashers only rode the sled they are bashing for less than a day. At a day, I'm just barely starting to understand the machine. After 500 miles, I'll tell you what I don't like about it. After 1000-1500, I'll finally be comfortable with the machine riding it like a pro.

Hopefully AC/Yamaha knock it out of the park and give us a sweet new ride. Com'on guys, I'm counting pulling for you!

 

[4StrokeAddict]

So, that's even at the lower boost then? Reason I am asking is I have been waiting for the Apex replacement patiently for a couple of years now. If it doesn't happen again this year, I am considering a turbocharged viper. Just scared about the Viper horror stories, though. Thanks for the info.

PM me or look through some of my posts. I own both and give a fare shack to both. I can praise and criticize both. I prefer Viper, so I may be bias, but I also admit to it. Both sleds are good sleds. Both can be better. There are significant differences between the 14 and 15 Viper and even bigger changes to 16. I've had the stiff suspension and kickback resulting in broken starter (PM me on this if it scares you!). I've also had to deal with Apex cornering issues, leaky fox shocks, Ski changes (horrible darting prior to tuners), crap seat, PITA oil filter changes, battery location (put in a trickle charger lead to maintain those batteries since to save yourself headachs), mirror mounting challenges, etc. My list for both is more extensive but I don't want to get into an argument on the forum. Just trying to be an honest broker. Depending on what you are looking for, I can make a good argument for both.

 

[Heritage]

I'm not missing the point at all...I like my apex...you like your viper.......right now left over viper's are dirt cheap...definitely the time to buy if you want a viper.

4 stroke addict...not trying to start a war...BUT here is what I have found reading posts on this site, and I did my research..(because I wanted to update in the future.)

Viper's have issues with starting..both hot and cold starting (some starters blowing out)
shocks need to be revalved (too stiff, bad ride compliance stock..especially 2014-2015)
clutching isn't right from the factory...lots of performance left on the table...so I'd have to re clutch it
If I want to beat up on an apex....I need a turbo (it's a pooch stock)

Like you said...the viper has a higher center of gravity (go ride an 800 cat)...almost feels tippy compared to the 800.

For all the flaws the apex may have...the viper has just as many..the viper page looks no different than the apex page looked 6 years ago..to me that's the biggest disappointment...After market shops see guys with Yamaha jackets on, and the dollar signs flash in their eyes...lol Yamaha maybe the single biggest reason the after market has stayed so viable...being a loyal Yamaha rider, who grew up on yamaha's and sno jets (yes I'm that old...lol)...that really chaps my #*$&@...The viper needs as much after market help as the original apex did....10 years later, and nothing changed for Yamaha...even when their sleds are built by cat...smh

BTW...you do realize I can turbo my apex, and spank your viper....right??

 

[Yamacat21]

Your right that it won't do any kind of speed on top across a lake, but in the woods corner to corner i'd go up against any apex no matter the mods. Sure their fun on a railroad grade but who really wants to hold the throttle at 100 mph all day? I rode with a guy last weekend that had a turbo viper and couldn't touch me on my stock one. A lot depends on rider ability. Horse power is no replacement for ability.

 

[journeyman]

I noticed it was posted that a current Apex is 163 HP. I've been told they are actually about the same (150 HP) as the older ones. (Ulmer) There are some youtube clips of some current Apex dyno runs and they do confirm this.

 

[Heritage]

Your right that it won't do any kind of speed on top across a lake, but in the woods corner to corner i'd go up against any apex no matter the mods. Sure their fun on a railroad grade but who really wants to hold the throttle at 100 mph all day? I rode with a guy last weekend that had a turbo viper and couldn't touch me on my stock one. A lot depends on rider ability. Horse power is no replacement for ability.

I agree...and that's why I was looking at the Vipers...I am at the point where I don't really need all that speed (but it sure puts a grin on my face), especially on the tight wooded trails that I ride...but the eps sure makes it nice..I can ride my xtx much further and longer with no sore shoulders from throwing around a 700 lb sled, than I could my old attak.

 

[4StrokeAddict]

I'm not missing the point at all...I like my apex...you like your viper.......right now left over viper's are dirt cheap...definitely the time to buy if you want a viper.

4 stroke addict...not trying to start a war...BUT here is what I have found reading posts on this site, and I did my research..(because I wanted to update in the future.)

Viper's have issues with starting..both hot and cold starting (some starters blowing out)
shocks need to be revalved (too stiff, bad ride compliance stock..especially 2014-2015)
clutching isn't right from the factory...lots of performance left on the table...so I'd have to re clutch it
If I want to beat up on an apex....I need a turbo (it's a pooch stock)

Like you said...the viper has a higher center of gravity (go ride an 800 cat)...almost feels tippy compared to the 800.

For all the flaws the apex may have...the viper has just as many..the viper page looks no different than the apex page looked 6 years ago..to me that's the biggest disappointment...After market shops see guys with Yamaha jackets on, and the dollar signs flash in their eyes...lol Yamaha maybe the single biggest reason the after market has stayed so viable...being a loyal Yamaha rider, who grew up on yamaha's and sno jets (yes I'm that old...lol)...that really chaps my #*$&@...The viper needs as much after market help as the original apex did....10 years later, and nothing changed for Yamaha...even when their sleds are built by cat...smh

BTW...you do realize I can turbo my apex, and spank your viper....right??

I wouldn't say that its a pouch. I could keep up with or beat an apex with a stock viper to 70MPH. Apex wins after 75MPH in stock form. You can make either sled perform, but both need aftermarket and so do all the other brands. My point about turboing was $$$. I can make a viper perform for less than an apex. An apex will never have as nice a ride as a viper, its just out dated. Nothing wrong with an Apex. Great machine and it is a very solid performer. But it desperately needs a replacement to compete with modern sleds in every category except its engine and quality!

 

[Heritage]

I noticed it was posted that a current Apex is 163 HP. I've been told they are actually about the same (150 HP) as the older ones. (Ulmer) There are some youtube clips of some current Apex dyno runs and they do confirm this.

I don't know....I have seen dyno runs higher too....I wouldn't trade my xtx for my old attak..the mid range on the xtx feels much stronger. My old attak was fast...but I don't know which would beat which....tough call.

 

[titanrcr]

I don't know....I have seen dyno runs higher too....I wouldn't trade my xtx for my old attak..the mid range on the xtx feels much stronger. My old attak was fast...but I don't know which would beat which....tough call.

It's really hard to compare dyno numbers from one dyno to another. What is the air temp, baro, correction factor etc. For that matter the 4 strokes gain a good amount of power as they break in so just too many variables to compare.

 

[4StrokeAddict]

I agree...and that's why I was looking at the Vipers...I am at the point where I don't really need all that speed (but it sure puts a grin on my face), especially on the tight wooded trails that I ride...but the eps sure makes it nice..I can ride my xtx much further and longer with no sore shoulders from throwing around a 700 lb sled, than I could my old attak.

I can tell you that yes, Viper takes more steering effort but not nearly like my old XTC. Can't speak for an attack as that is a much heavier machine that I haven't had a chance to ride long distance. What I can tell you is that I don't get sour arm from my viper like I did on my XTC, but then again I'm in my 30's. I can also tell you that I bought my Viper due to my back injury and I can ride that all day over moderately rough trails of Grayling MI on a busy weekend and be ready to go another 100 while everyone else in our group to include Apex riders were B'ing about the conditions and how they were ready for a break. Myself and a Renegade buddy where the only two that thought the trails weren't that bad. I can tell you that a couple guys riding older sleds tried the Gade, Apex and Viper and kept raving about the Gade and Viper for ride quality.

If I were in your shoes, I'd wait and see what awesome sled AC/Yamaha came out with. If it were another bust, I'd do my homework on both Apex and Viper, ride both especially if you can find some that have mods, do the math on how much it's going to cost you to mod to get the machine you want and pull the trigger. Again to be completely fair, the only thing that would make me think twice about the viper is the broken starter issue. I had one, but its not as common as it would appear by this and other boards. PM me for additional details... Everything else is already fixed or mod-able.

 

[sk-rx1]

I noticed it was posted that a current Apex is 163 HP. I've been told they are actually about the same (150 HP) as the older ones. (Ulmer) There are some youtube clips of some current Apex dyno runs and they do confirm this.

The 163HP Apex was a "bogus" test done a few years back. It was done legitimately by dynotech I believe but they modified the fuel mixture since it was relatively warm. They may have done some other tuning, don't remember. Magically this number has been accepted as gospel for several years, and promoted by Yamaha. Too bad the sled was not stock, they leave that detail out. Most tests I have seen are all around 150hp.

 

[THKSNOW]

I have a friend that caught a "glimpse" of the new sled. It is a Sled. It appeared to be a Viper frame and info given to them --it has a factory installed turbo and puts out 180-190HP. That's all I know but I would say you can take it to the bank.

 

[fxnytrortxkid]

Sounds like you passed a guy with a turbo viper that had some graphics work done and maybe some custom panels.

 

[sheetwright]

Here are some more sneak pics of our partners sleds. New venting lights, lower stance etc

 

[DSimps10]

Cat is also releasing March 1, to me this sounds like its a joint effort.