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New Heavy Duty/High performance clutching for My Sidewinder this season

Fleecer said:
Since the 8dn is longer/narrower, it will naturally sit lower in the rear clutch. To adjust belt deflection you have to add/subtract washers on the bolt that holds the clutch to the jackshaft.

In your case with the 8dn, you have to add 1 or 2 washers to the bolt to raise the belt up in the sheaves.
Click to expand...

Fleecer, thanks. I'm running the XS825. I put the rear of the sled on the stand, backed off the adjuster enough to raise the belt ~0.5 mm above the sheave, and rotated the secondary a few times to ensure the position was good.

I believe the 8DN would naturally sit higher in the sheaves pre-adjustment because it's longer than the XS825. Wouldn't a shorter belt like the XS825 naturally sit lower in the sheaves? There's less belt and it's "tighter" than the 8DN, so it would naturally sit lower in the sheaves. Right? This is probably all academic though. Bottom line is that the adjuster on the Pro4 makes belt position adjustment pretty simple. Thanks for yours and Islandracing's input.
 

I've done a ton of testing on the TAPP/old school secondary (now 3500 miles on the TAPP). The key to happiness is 1) +1mm rollers in the TAPP, and 2) 43/32 finish helix, and 3) green STM spring. Other components can vary but these are the key "rough tune" components you have to get right. I know it's a custom helix...but many of you have spent $2500+ for your clutches, what's another $50 up charge for the right helix? The TAPP will easily offset any helix you through at it; I found that this 32 finish helix with the STM green spring is the ticket for the secondary. To control heat you need to do that through the helix angle and not the spring...the slipping problem is at speed only, and too stiff a spring is too much squeeze down low. Same issue with a 38 start helix down low. If I could get them to cut a 30 degree finish I would try that, but STM said 32 is the lower limit for their equipment. The rest of my setup: 270/300 HP, 22/41 gears, $97 XS829 belt (my TAPP is set for CAT width belts), +1mm rollers with the short roller bolts and no washers, 2 short bolts with 1 washer a piece in each arm (6.7g) and the stiff TAPP spring. A ramps all the way around...clicker at 3, 4, or 5 depending on snow. Works awesome, just hit 850 miles on the belt running UP railroad grades and the belt still looks great. Amazing performance, IMO, what's necessary to run big HP reliably. Did I try the 46/34? Yes and it slipped at speed. Did I try the 38/32? Yes and it was too much downshift (just about went over the handlebars). Try the 43/32 helix and green spring!
 
My 43/34 Dalton helix is very close to that one you’re running. Everybody’s set up is a lil different though...so I don’t know if I believe that just/only one set up works for everyone? But good info.

I’m gonna back off my spring wrap a notch...I think that will get me pretty close.
 
Tcat100 said:
I've done a ton of testing on the TAPP/old school secondary (now 3500 miles on the TAPP). The key to happiness is 1) +1mm rollers in the TAPP, and 2) 43/32 finish helix, and 3) green STM spring. Other components can vary but these are the key "rough tune" components you have to get right. I know it's a custom helix...but many of you have spent $2500+ for your clutches, what's another $50 up charge for the right helix? The TAPP will easily offset any helix you through at it; I found that this 32 finish helix with the STM green spring is the ticket for the secondary. To control heat you need to do that through the helix angle and not the spring...the slipping problem is at speed only, and too stiff a spring is too much squeeze down low. Same issue with a 38 start helix down low. If I could get them to cut a 30 degree finish I would try that, but STM said 32 is the lower limit for their equipment. The rest of my setup: 270/300 HP, 22/41 gears, $97 XS829 belt (my TAPP is set for CAT width belts), +1mm rollers with the short roller bolts and no washers, 2 short bolts with 1 washer a piece in each arm (6.7g) and the stiff TAPP spring. A ramps all the way around...clicker at 3, 4, or 5 depending on snow. Works awesome, just hit 850 miles on the belt running UP railroad grades and the belt still looks great. Amazing performance, IMO, what's necessary to run big HP reliably. Did I try the 46/34? Yes and it slipped at speed. Did I try the 38/32? Yes and it was too much downshift (just about went over the handlebars). Try the 43/32 helix and green spring!
Click to expand...
Just got the TAPP and still have the STM secondary on it haven't tried it out yet as I live in Ohio and no longer get any snow. Has anyone tried the 46/36 for the UP trails? My STM Primary was dialed in pretty good just want to try the TAPP.
 
As far as setting deflection, the 8DN is longer so it will sit up higher in the secondary than the XS825. Here is the link for the "tech page" for setting your deflection: https://totallyamaha.com/snowmobiles/aaTECH/belts/beltdeflect.htm The "specs" in the manual is not applicable because the belt will sit where it wants to sit when set correctly. The choice to use an 8DN is strictly for a reliability and durability standpoint and not a performance standpoint. The 8DN is a TOUGH MOFO period. The "reports" state a 3mph top speed loss due to the length, but you "may" gain the low end punch for corner to corner due to the larger OD in the secondary. Stated many times that snowmobile trips are too valuable and getting far and few between due to the weather. Last thing I want to do is to be stitting on the side of the trail pulling 10 million chunks of belt out of the clutching.
 
snowcaine said:
Fleecer, thanks. I'm running the XS825. I put the rear of the sled on the stand, backed off the adjuster enough to raise the belt ~0.5 mm above the sheave, and rotated the secondary a few times to ensure the position was good.

I believe the 8DN would naturally sit higher in the sheaves pre-adjustment because it's longer than the XS825. Wouldn't a shorter belt like the XS825 naturally sit lower in the sheaves? There's less belt and it's "tighter" than the 8DN, so it would naturally sit lower in the sheaves. Right? This is probably all academic though. Bottom line is that the adjuster on the Pro4 makes belt position adjustment pretty simple. Thanks for yours and Islandracing's input.
Click to expand...
No. It has to do with width, but they are the same width....right?
Therefore with the longer 8DN belt the secondary sheaves must be brought closer together so in theory we are cheating it, so the secondary is acting like it is bigger in diameter than it really is. That uses up the slightly longer belt length.
 
snowcaine said:
Fleecer, thanks. I'm running the XS825. I put the rear of the sled on the stand, backed off the adjuster enough to raise the belt ~0.5 mm above the sheave, and rotated the secondary a few times to ensure the position was good.

I believe the 8DN would naturally sit higher in the sheaves pre-adjustment because it's longer than the XS825. Wouldn't a shorter belt like the XS825 naturally sit lower in the sheaves? There's less belt and it's "tighter" than the 8DN, so it would naturally sit lower in the sheaves. Right? This is probably all academic though. Bottom line is that the adjuster on the Pro4 makes belt position adjustment pretty simple. Thanks for yours and Islandracing's input.
Click to expand...


I was focused on width alone when posting so you may be right when stating how the length will affect deflection. I can attest that when I ran the 8dn belt, I had to adjust belt deflection, however my memory is fading and I cant remember if I had to add or subtract washers. All I know is I had to adjust......boy I hate getting old!

At any rate, the 8dn is one tough sob as noted, but slipped more than the 8jp and loss topspeed. Imo these 2 negatives outweighed the positives, but to each their own.

Be advised, imo deflection on the winder is not as crucial as it was years past. The old piston port triples needed perfect deflection or they would bog. The winder isn't that fussy. If in question, err on the side of caution and set belt deflection a little low vs a little high. Loss of performance is not noticeable and your top gear will thank you.

Lastly, the xs825 is a better choice in comparison to the 8dn or 8jp imo, albeit it requires big clutching changes to make it work.
 
74Nitro said:
No. It has to do with width, but they are the same width....right?
Therefore with the longer 8DN belt the secondary sheaves must be brought closer together so in theory we are cheating it, so the secondary is acting like it is bigger in diameter than it really is. That uses up the slightly longer belt length.
Click to expand...

The tech specs I found show that the 8DN is 0.03" narrower than the XS825. Who knows what real-world difference that makes though. The 0.25" longer length of the 8DN (compared to the XS825) would seem to be a bigger deal. After all, that is ~6.35 mm additional length the 8DN has compared to the XS825.

I posted this on p. 7 of this thread:

I believe the 8DN is 44.625" long by 1.375" wide. The XS825 is 44.375" long by 1.406" wide. So, the 8DN is longer (by 0.25") and narrower (by 0.03") than the XS825.
 
Tcat100 said:
I've done a ton of testing on the TAPP/old school secondary (now 3500 miles on the TAPP). The key to happiness is 1) +1mm rollers in the TAPP, and 2) 43/32 finish helix, and 3) green STM spring. Other components can vary but these are the key "rough tune" components you have to get right. I know it's a custom helix...but many of you have spent $2500+ for your clutches, what's another $50 up charge for the right helix? The TAPP will easily offset any helix you through at it; I found that this 32 finish helix with the STM green spring is the ticket for the secondary. To control heat you need to do that through the helix angle and not the spring...the slipping problem is at speed only, and too stiff a spring is too much squeeze down low. Same issue with a 38 start helix down low. If I could get them to cut a 30 degree finish I would try that, but STM said 32 is the lower limit for their equipment. The rest of my setup: 270/300 HP, 22/41 gears, $97 XS829 belt (my TAPP is set for CAT width belts), +1mm rollers with the short roller bolts and no washers, 2 short bolts with 1 washer a piece in each arm (6.7g) and the stiff TAPP spring. A ramps all the way around...clicker at 3, 4, or 5 depending on snow. Works awesome, just hit 850 miles on the belt running UP railroad grades and the belt still looks great. Amazing performance, IMO, what's necessary to run big HP reliably. Did I try the 46/34? Yes and it slipped at speed. Did I try the 38/32? Yes and it was too much downshift (just about went over the handlebars). Try the 43/32 helix and green spring!
Click to expand...


That STM green secondary spring seems to be an Arctic Cat spring---96-157 rate. That is VERY close to the Dalton white---98-165.

You are running A 300 tune on that set up to get correct RPM? Mod muffler?

STM still quoted me an additional $75 for that helix even though you have had it cut before.
I just ordered one---you talked me into it.....................
 
snowcaine said:
The tech specs I found show that the 8DN is 0.03" narrower than the XS825. Who knows what real-world difference that makes though. The 0.25" longer length of the 8DN (compared to the XS825) would seem to be a bigger deal. After all, that is ~6.35 mm additional length the 8DN has compared to the XS825.

I posted this on p. 7 of this thread:

I believe the 8DN is 44.625" long by 1.375" wide. The XS825 is 44.375" long by 1.406" wide. So, the 8DN is longer (by 0.25") and narrower (by 0.03") than the XS825.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is more about the length. Bringing the secondary sheaves closer together to take the belt up higher than usual to take up that extra length.
Slight center to center difference is why.
 
STAIN said:
That STM green secondary spring seems to be an Arctic Cat spring---96-157 rate. That is VERY close to the Dalton white---98-165.

You are running A 300 tune on that set up to get correct RPM? Mod muffler?

STM still quoted me an additional $75 for that helix even though you have had it cut before.
I just ordered one---you talked me into it.....................
Click to expand...
Stain,
Are you running the 1.5” cat belt width?
 
STAIN said:
That STM green secondary spring seems to be an Arctic Cat spring---96-157 rate. That is VERY close to the Dalton white---98-165.

You are running A 300 tune on that set up to get correct RPM? Mod muffler?

STM still quoted me an additional $75 for that helix even though you have had it cut before.
I just ordered one---you talked me into it.....................
Click to expand...

I have the hurricane 2.5" with a TD header (long story). When I drop back to the 270 setting I lose about 250 rpm that I can offset with the clickers
 
STAIN said:
That STM green secondary spring seems to be an Arctic Cat spring---96-157 rate. That is VERY close to the Dalton white---98-165.

You are running A 300 tune on that set up to get correct RPM? Mod muffler?

STM still quoted me an additional $75 for that helix even though you have had it cut before.
I just ordered one---you talked me into it.....................
Click to expand...
I just tried to place the order also for this helix and the tech guy is talking me out of it? He said that that low of a angle will not work and will hit the towers on their "Old gen tuner" I explained another member been using it for over a year.
 
SuperTurbo said:
I just tried to place the order also for this helix and the tech guy is talking me out of it? He said that that low of a angle will not work and will hit the towers on their "Old gen tuner" I explained another member been using it for over a year.
Click to expand...
It doesn't hit the towers, but I did have to clearance the cover slots on the back side around the rollers. 10 min with a hand file...no big deal at all. I think it's also close with a 34 too. You'll know because the outer edge of the helix down low (ie full shift) will have some burrs on it.
 
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