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****** o7-o6 warmers.. WARNING meltdown of CPU *******

Since I work at a Yamaha marine dealer, I was able to go into the dealer online services network that lists all the tech bulletins for sleds and there is not one bulletin listed that addresses a cpu/ecu meltdown in regards to handlebar warmers either for 06 or 07 sleds as of today 02-13-2007, 5:10 pm central U.S. TIME. Just would like everyone to know the fact of such rumored bulletin. Thanks, Brian. P.S. - there is one for the phazer front ball joint nut though. If anyone wants to know more let me know.
 

grips

06 ATTAK with the 07 updates.I still do not run them on full high- way to uncomfortable. way hot. Very happy with the fix on my sled. It worked here.Temps this past weekend were a balmy 8-12 degrees in northern Mi.
 
All right all you electrical wizards... Why couldn't you use (or maybe someone that remembers more of that crap than I do could design the circuit) a FET or MOSFET to power the grips straight off the battery and drive it with the PWM signal from the ECU so that you could still control them from the handlebars? Seems like it would be easy enough... and would eliminate the high current load on the ECU and allow you to run whatever resistance you wanted in the grips. Should work similar to an electronic speed control in a remote control car. So who's gonna step up and design this?????
 
King Of The Lake there was such a bulletin sent to the Canadian dealers here in Ontario i know this for a fact as i saw it with my own eyes,there has been alot of talk that the US Yamaha is a whole different company than the Canadian affiliate which may be the reason for the State side not knowing of such a bulletin

Tom
 
Bigmax said:
All right all you electrical wizards... Why couldn't you use (or maybe someone that remembers more of that crap than I do could design the circuit) a FET or MOSFET to power the grips straight off the battery and drive it with the PWM signal from the ECU so that you could still control them from the handlebars? Seems like it would be easy enough... and would eliminate the high current load on the ECU and allow you to run whatever resistance you wanted in the grips. Should work similar to an electronic speed control in a remote control car. So who's gonna step up and design this?????
Click to expand...

This pulse width modulator might already be it. Battery to control to grips.

http://www.hotgrips.com/product_detail. ... ccessories
 
Before I blow up the phone lines at Hot Grips, has anybody contacted them to see if there is a way to install that part into our sleds and still use the factory adjuster? I'm sure there is a way to find the wire from the ECU to the grip circuit, and modulate that, but I wonder if mdulated current would screw up the adjuster. Does this sound like Chineese?
Nate
 
gade-thrasher said:
The voltage source to the grips is a 12V source. The adjustment of the grips is not made by simply varying the voltage. The grips work by a step signal source. The voltage source is actually alway 12V, but it is in a sense turned "on and off". When the grip setting is low, the on and off occurs slowly. When the grip setting is high, the on and off occurs more quickly, thus resulting in more heat. This is controlled by something similar to a 555 timer circuit in the CPU. Because the source is stepped to control the heat, the 12V is never changed. And since the 12V never changes, the amount of current draw never changes. And this is why Yamaha is probably not recommending this change due to the current draw.

The only way to get around this problem is to wire the '06 bars in parallel, then install a resistor in series with the paralleled grips. This will reduce the total current draw through the CPU. It will however reduce the power going to the grips. But you could size the resistor so that the grips still put out adequate heat when set on high. However, this still may end up in too much current drawn through the CPU.

You can see what I mean in the pics attached below. I took an scope and measured the source signal. You can see when the grips are set at low, the signal has a slower setp than when it is set at high. But the voltage remains at 12V all the time.

Do with this information as you like ..... But that is just a lowly engineer's opinion.
Click to expand...

According to gade-thrasher the Apex hand warmer circuit is already designed like that pulse width monitor from Hot Grips. I just received my resistor from MCM Electronics and intend to install it this week. I will post my results.
 
Yes, and it is logical because a variable switching device is simpler and smaller than a variable resisting device. The unknown, the info we cant seem to get is how much load the ECU will handle long term.

Be nice to have some input from the circuit designers in Japan who might be off designing processing boards for Yamaha electric pianos right now. :o| :o|
 
No no no... LOL

That Hotgrips unit just does exactly what the signal coming from our ECU does... creates a PWM signal.

Think of a relay... it's basically a switch that can carry a high current but is opened and closed by a different source that is usually very low current.

Our PWM signal is basically always turning ON and OFF and how fast it turns on and off (and how long it says ON or OFF) depends on how high you have your handwarmers set.

A regular contact relay could never switch fast enough from ON to OFF to ON to follow the PWM signal from the ECU. However, a FET or MOSFET, which should basically work in the same manner as a relay only with no moving parts, could turn on and off that quickly.

So in a nutshell... you would run a new wire direct from the battery to the FET and then from the FET to the grips. You would then hook the existing wire from the ECU going to the grips to the FET and then the FET would turn ON and OFF just like the ECU. Wired this way all of the current from the grips would go through the FET and not the ECU.

Only question is... what all is needed to make this circuit?
 
Bigmax said:
All right all you electrical wizards... Why couldn't you use (or maybe someone that remembers more of that crap than I do could design the circuit) a FET or MOSFET to power the grips straight off the battery and drive it with the PWM signal from the ECU so that you could still control them from the handlebars? Seems like it would be easy enough... and would eliminate the high current load on the ECU and allow you to run whatever resistance you wanted in the grips. Should work similar to an electronic speed control in a remote control car. So who's gonna step up and design this?????
Click to expand...

I'm actually going to try something like this. I don't have time to work on it at present - too busy with work, and trying to find time to ride. So it will be this summer when I work on it.

But my idea is to use a transistor and a small transformer. I'll use a transformer connected direct to the battery, and boost the voltage from 12V to 18V. I'll then use a transistor that is connected to the output PWM that would normally control the grips. This will control a similar PWM 18V signal from the transformer which will output to the grips.

This way the grips will get the same signal, just boosted to 18V. The control for the grips, and the display on the dash will still all work the same. This will allow more heat from the grips without risking damage to any other component. and everything will still function normally.
 
Bigmax said:
No no no... LOL

That Hotgrips unit just does exactly what the signal coming from our ECU does... creates a PWM signal.

Think of a relay... it's basically a switch that can carry a high current but is opened and closed by a different source that is usually very low current.

Our PWM signal is basically always turning ON and OFF and how fast it turns on and off (and how long it says ON or OFF) depends on how high you have your handwarmers set.

A regular contact relay could never switch fast enough from ON to OFF to ON to follow the PWM signal from the ECU. However, a FET or MOSFET, which should basically work in the same manner as a relay only with no moving parts, could turn on and off that quickly.

So in a nutshell... you would run a new wire direct from the battery to the FET and then from the FET to the grips. You would then hook the existing wire from the ECU going to the grips to the FET and then the FET would turn ON and OFF just like the ECU. Wired this way all of the current from the grips would go through the FET and not the ECU.

Only question is... what all is needed to make this circuit?
Click to expand...

OK, you may have a revolutionary idea here.

If I follow, use the ECU grip output to activate a solid state relay rather than go to the grips. The new SS relay takes the big load to the grips as the output side is wired directly to the battery on common and to the grips on the normally open contact, ECU load is lightened as it is now just a signal

and.........

the rocker switch on the bar is still usable to vary heat.

Nice elegant approach!!!!!!!! The part that could fail with this now is $20 vs $623
 
Guys, Please dont take this as an insult to your technical thinking approach to a fix but I feel you are way overboard on this. Let me ask you this - what controls how much power is sent to the grip circuit from the ecu? My belief is the switch on the handle bar that you adjust to control power from the ecu thru a resister circuit. All the grips are doing when power is supplied to them is converting the volts/amps/watts into a heat dissapation. The grips themselves are not drawing power but only accepting the power that is supplied to them thru your adjustment position. Therefore I see no way the ecu going to in any harm of meltdown because it is only supplying power as it should be thru its proper wiring. If you dont think I am right then test this - get a volt ohm meter and hook up to one of the lead connectors that the grips attach. Take readings at differant settings and you will find that the readings will increase as you increase your grip setting. Differant power outage to the grips then creates differant temps that the grips create. Just my thought process on simple electrical power supply. What happens to a light bulb when you only supply 11 volts to it versus 12.5? The light is dimmer because of less power just as the grips are cooler when supplied less power from the ecu thru the switch adjustment on the handlebars. MUSKOKA APEX RTX 07 - Its not that I dont believe you on the bulletin up in Canada, but I think yamaha canada may have put it out to their dealers to inform customers to not modify their wiring of the or any grips before the plug ins for the grips to supply power for them. I think if you tap in somewhere else in the wiring circuit, that may fail the ecu. Can you get me the phone number of your dealer where you saw the bulletin at so I can have them fax me a copy of it and therefore allow me to contact a source at yamaha in the states here to verifiy any potential problems ?Thanks again and sorry it was a long post. Brian
 
I have been thinking of the same thing. Design a circuit that still utilizes the grip controller for control, but allows the heavier current to run thru a different circuit thus protecting the ECU circuitry. Hardware is about $30 dollars, not including wire connectors etc... This circuit is untested and I am not 100% is right as I am assuming values, but I think I am close.
Any constructive feedback is appreciated. Oh yea, I have an 06 Apex GT with 06 bars, so this circuit reflects that.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m291 ... ircuit.jpg
 
KING OF THE LAKE said:
Guys, Please dont take this as an insult to your technical thinking approach to a fix but I feel you are way overboard on this. Let me ask you this - what controls how much power is sent to the grip circuit from the ecu? My belief is the switch on the handle bar that you adjust to control power from the ecu thru a resister circuit. All the grips are doing when power is supplied to them is converting the volts/amps/watts into a heat dissapation. The grips themselves are not drawing power but only accepting the power that is supplied to them thru your adjustment position. Therefore I see no way the ecu going to in any harm of meltdown because it is only supplying power as it should be thru its proper wiring. If you dont think I am right then test this - get a volt ohm meter and hook up to one of the lead connectors that the grips attach. Take readings at differant settings and you will find that the readings will increase as you increase your grip setting. Differant power outage to the grips then creates differant temps that the grips create. Just my thought process on simple electrical power supply. What happens to a light bulb when you only supply 11 volts to it versus 12.5? The light is dimmer because of less power just as the grips are cooler when supplied less power from the ecu thru the switch adjustment on the handlebars. MUSKOKA APEX RTX 07 - Its not that I dont believe you on the bulletin up in Canada, but I think yamaha canada may have put it out to their dealers to inform customers to not modify their wiring of the or any grips before the plug ins for the grips to supply power for them. I think if you tap in somewhere else in the wiring circuit, that may fail the ecu. Can you get me the phone number of your dealer where you saw the bulletin at so I can have them fax me a copy of it and therefore allow me to contact a source at yamaha in the states here to verifiy any potential problems ?Thanks again and sorry it was a long post. Brian
Click to expand...

Your thought process is incorrect. The volts to the grips never change - it is always 12 volts. The signal source to the grips is a PWM source, which is basically an on/off switch. What you are controlling with the button on the handlebars is the frequency of the on/off. I have already tested and verified this with a voltmeter, ohm-meter, and an oscilloscope. You are right that the ecu will only supply the power it can as a function of voltage and resistance. But when the '06 bars are wired in parallel, the resistance drops by 75%, which quadruples the current draw, and the power output as well.
 
Gade thrasher, Have you then tested the resistance between the 07 grips and 06 grips? The 07 sleds are wired in parralell are they not, just like when you add the adapter harness on the 06 update? Then the new grips should be the ultimate resistance limiter that yamaha has designed into the sled. I am not trying to argue with you or anyone at all but I still think there is no risk running the 06 bars on the 07 or the 06 bars back on the 06 sleds with the adapter harness. If anyone is scared to just plug into normal, than wire them direct to the battery with an on/off high/low switch and inline ceramic reisiter just like days of old when hotgrips first came out. Then all the ecu has to do is keep the battery charged during running so you can draw from straight battery voltage. The ecu has the built in overfactor to do this without possible failure. Hook up a set of grips in parralell to a 12 volt battery and feel the grips get warm once. Some how I have a hard time believing the 06 grips sett on the lower settings draw anymore than the 07 new grips set on high to create the same heat effect. Once again not trying to argue but this isnt that hard to overcome. Gade thrasher I am in wausau - you are in marathon, lets test this together about the resistance and put this stupid issue to bed. Yamaha probably wont themselves. I bet on the fact that dan- machzed or anyone else doesnt experiance ecu failure with their fix.
 
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