Primary Rollers

[PowderFalcon]

The only way I found to actually FIX the roller eating issue was to go to the older RX-1 or Apex primary clutch. We tried stock bushings and Thunder rollers all to no avail on the stock Sidewinder clutch. No matter what we tried or did we could not make roller bushings or different belts last any length of time.

Went to the older RX-1 and Apex primaries and so far problem is solved to the point where roller problems are in the rearview. My buddy was eating rollers in the Sidewinder primary every week and I was every 300-600 miles. Longest I ever got was 1200 miles on a set of rollers in the stock clutch, but you had to push bushings back into place about half way thru those miles and go easy on the throttle. There is something about the stock clutch that is just not right. Just not strong enough like its made of China steel and alum. possibly a weak design flaw or something, but the older primary is better which is hard to imagine just looking at it.

Since going to the older primary neither my buddy or myself has blown any belts or eaten any rollers, and the older clutch has proven to be quicker and faster than the stock Winder primary. It took a lot of miles, blown belts of all different brands, different rollers, varying offsets, clutch setup and spring testing to figure this all out. It actually took many seasons to finally figure it out that the actual Winder primary was the issue all along. Now we can run any belt without blowing them and clutch setups are far more forgiving with wider tuning windows to them. What a long haul it has been to get to where we are now though, its been very costly trying all the different combos.

Really appreciate hearing this. i was on the fence putting an older primary on, but now im going to! I had good luck with the XS825 belt last season. which belt did you stick with after going to the apex clutch? 8dn? also, did you set it up with same offset ? ~88mm? Which spring and weights?

thanks Mike

 

[Big_Phil]

The only way I found to actually FIX the roller eating issue was to go to the older RX-1 or Apex primary clutch. We tried stock bushings and Thunder rollers all to no avail on the stock Sidewinder clutch. No matter what we tried or did we could not make roller bushings or different belts last any length of time.

Went to the older RX-1 and Apex primaries and so far problem is solved to the point where roller problems are in the rearview. My buddy was eating rollers in the Sidewinder primary every week and I was every 300-600 miles. Longest I ever got was 1200 miles on a set of rollers in the stock clutch, but you had to push bushings back into place about half way thru those miles and go easy on the throttle. There is something about the stock clutch that is just not right. Just not strong enough like its made of China steel and alum. possibly a weak design flaw or something, but the older primary is better which is hard to imagine just looking at it.

Since going to the older primary neither my buddy or myself has blown any belts or eaten any rollers, and the older clutch has proven to be quicker and faster than the stock Winder primary. It took a lot of miles, blown belts of all different brands, different rollers, varying offsets, clutch setup and spring testing to figure this all out. It actually took many seasons to finally figure it out that the actual Winder primary was the issue all along. Now we can run any belt without blowing them and clutch setups are far more forgiving with wider tuning windows to them. What a long haul it has been to get to where we are now though, its been very costly trying all the different combos.

Did you every try the larger rollers on the sidewinder primary?

 

[KnappAttack]

Really appreciate hearing this. i was on the fence putting an older primary on, but now im going to! I had good luck with the XS825 belt last season. which belt did you stick with after going to the apex clutch? 8dn? also, did you set it up with same offset ? ~88mm? Which spring and weights?

thanks Mike

I just moved the spring and weights right over to the RX-1 primary and used both 825 and 8jp, both with success, The 825 pulls the RPM down while the 8JP allowed much higher RPMs, so the different belts can be used as a quick tuning tool as well.

I used the same Winder offset on the Hurricane bar yes.

The RX-1 clutch allowed me to add shim behind the secondary again, I'm guessing because the China steel on the winder primary shaft has actually stretched and sit on stub shaft further, making the secondary sit in further on the jackshaft.

Honestly, I think the shaft expanded enough on the winder primary that it was binding the movable up enough to cause all kinds of the issues we've been having with that POS China primary blowing belts and eating rollers. Going to the old primary I was even able to go back to softer secondary springs rather than band aid it with heavy weights in the primary and heavy secondary springs because of what I believe to be the binding of the Winder primary. The binding on the stock winder primary was wrecking havoc on the belts and rollers IMO.

Remember the picture of the broken shaft on the winder primary lakercr had I believe last season? Well, that pretty much tells the tale on the expanding shafts right there. Here is the link to that post. Well, this isn't good - primary is toast

 

[KnappAttack]

Did you every try the larger rollers on the sidewinder primary?

Yes, just to find no appreciable difference in longevity. Never tried the brass bushings however.

 

[ryama]

I just moved the spring and weights right over to the RX-1 primary and used both 825 and 8jp, both with success, The 825 pulls the RPM down while the 8JP allowed much higher RPMs, so the different belts can be used as a quick tuning tool as well.

I used the same Winder offset on the Hurricane bar yes.

The RX-1 clutch allowed me to add shim behind the secondary again, I'm guessing because the China steel on the winder primary shaft has actually stretched and sit on stub shaft further, making the secondary sit in further on the jackshaft.

Honestly, I think the shaft expanded enough on the winder primary that it was binding the movable up enough to cause all kinds of the issues we've been having with that POS China primary blowing belts and eating rollers. Going to the old primary I was even able to go back to softer secondary springs rather than band aid it with heavy weights in the primary and heavy secondary springs because of what I believe to be the binding of the Winder primary. The binding on the stock winder primary was wrecking havoc on the belts and rollers IMO.

Remember the picture of the broken shaft on the winder primary lakercr had I believe last season? Well, that pretty much tells the tale on the expanding shafts right there. Here is the link to that post. Well, this isn't good - primary is toast

Thank you for sharing.

Based on your advise, I purchased a Apex clutch tonight. It seems my whole machine has been set up by you virtually.
I have followed you and taken your advise since I bought my machine and have always been happy.
Thank You, for all the good you do here!

 

[stevewithOCD]

The only way I found to actually FIX the roller eating issue was to go to the older RX-1 or Apex primary clutch. We tried stock bushings and Thunder rollers all to no avail on the stock Sidewinder clutch. No matter what we tried or did we could not make roller bushings or different belts last any length of time.

Went to the older RX-1 and Apex primaries and so far problem is solved to the point where roller problems are in the rearview. My buddy was eating rollers in the Sidewinder primary every week and I was every 300-600 miles. Longest I ever got was 1200 miles on a set of rollers in the stock clutch, but you had to push bushings back into place about half way thru those miles and go easy on the throttle. There is something about the stock clutch that is just not right. Just not strong enough like its made of China steel and alum. possibly a weak design flaw or something, but the older primary is better which is hard to imagine just looking at it.

Since going to the older primary neither my buddy or myself has blown any belts or eaten any rollers, and the older clutch has proven to be quicker and faster than the stock Winder primary. It took a lot of miles, blown belts of all different brands, different rollers, varying offsets, clutch setup and spring testing to figure this all out. It actually took many seasons to finally figure it out that the actual Winder primary was the issue all along. Now we can run any belt without blowing them and clutch setups are far more forgiving with wider tuning windows to them. What a long haul it has been to get to where we are now though, its been very costly trying all the different combos.

AND, don't forget when you change the rollers every weekend, sometimes you forget to put LOCTITE on the nuts and blow up BOTH clutches!!!!!

 

[Dr. FeeLGooD]

Way to take one.... er lots for the team Knapp. Curious, did you try a Nytro clutch? Are they different? I think I put a spider from a Vector when mine cracked. Not sure actually I dont recall what it was from but it was a direct fit. All I remember for sure it was not from a Nytro. How long have you been running this current set up?

 

[1nc 2000]

This year I am also going to the apex primary.

I just moved the spring and weights right over to the RX-1 primary and used both 825 and 8jp, both with success, The 825 pulls the RPM down while the 8JP allowed much higher RPMs, so the different belts can be used as a quick tuning tool as well.

I used the same Winder offset on the Hurricane bar yes.

The RX-1 clutch allowed me to add shim behind the secondary again, I'm guessing because the China steel on the winder primary shaft has actually stretched and sit on stub shaft further, making the secondary sit in further on the jackshaft.

Honestly, I think the shaft expanded enough on the winder primary that it was binding the movable up enough to cause all kinds of the issues we've been having with that POS China primary blowing belts and eating rollers. Going to the old primary I was even able to go back to softer secondary springs rather than band aid it with heavy weights in the primary and heavy secondary springs because of what I believe to be the binding of the Winder primary. The binding on the stock winder primary was wrecking havoc on the belts and rollers IMO.

Remember the picture of the broken shaft on the winder primary lakercr had I believe last season? Well, that pretty much tells the tale on the expanding shafts right there. Here is the link to that post. Well, this isn't good - primary is toast

What did you torque the primary bolt to with the apex clutch?
I bet the higher torque on the sidewinder clutch has alot to do with the shaft expanding on that cheap clutch.
When the sidewinders first came out the torque of that bolt was the same then yamaha changed to a higher setting due to clutches spinning on the stub shaft.

Also going to Apex primary this year with 911 response cover. Tired of changing rollers.
4 sets last winter.
The price of rollers and belts is higher then the cost of an Apex clutch.

 

[74Nitro]

Way to take one.... er lots for the team Knapp. Curious, did you try a Nytro clutch? Are they different? I think I put a spider from a Vector when mine cracked. Not sure actually I dont recall what it was from but it was a direct fit. All I remember for sure it was not from a Nytro. How long have you been running this current set up?

The Nytro clutch is the same. I also had the spider crack and the clutch came apart while riding. That's why I'm reluctant to go that route. The triple is harder on clutches than the four cylinder.

 

[1nc 2000]

From what I here, the primary g force rollers hold up in the sidewinder. I purchased a set this fall and have not run them yet. 16mm roller is what they offer.

 

[Turboflash]

KA, just curious what the difference in weight is between RX-1/Apex primary compared to stock Winder primary?

 

[swampcat]

KA, just curious what the difference in weight is between RX-1/Apex primary compared to stock Winder primary?

Well one thing is the fixed sheave has the shaft mounted to it. Where the older clutch the shaft is a seperate piece. Sorry, missed the part about weight.

 

[swampcat]

With all this talk of using a older primary on a Winder. Perusing the parts fiche.... the 2013 Nytro,2014 Viper and 2015 Viper, ALL have the same $447 primary. Starting in 2016, the Viper up to 2020 uses a different primary part # at a cost of $391. Starting in 2017 the Winder has a clutch with a cost of $362, and the aforementioned shaft change. Didnt go back far enough to check Apex stuff. Analasis paralasis was starting to set in. After a break, a 2010 apex clutch goes for $620, must be some GOLD in that one. The Apex clutch has the seperate hub shaft also.

 

[justinator]

From what I here, the primary g force rollers hold up in the sidewinder. I purchased a set this fall and have not run them yet. 16mm roller is what they offer.

View attachment 156835

They are also available in 15mm. They do not list them on the website for some reason. You have to call. Fleecer bought a set to try out for this season.

 

[justinator]

I guess I have been fortunate with my roller thus far. I replaced the stockers with thunder products 14.8mm at 50 miles. I kept the yamaha rollers in my bag so I could swap the set out trailside if I ran into issues. About 200 miles later I switched to xs825 belt, dalton weights, aligned using the hurricane bar and ran an additional 2300 miles at 270+hp with same belt same rollers. I dissasembled the clutch for cleaning and the rollers are tight and in mint condition. I did switch the 35-39 helix out for a 35 with yamah yellow spring and run a “light” setup in the front clutch. This gives me a consistent 9000rpms , very cool clutch running temps as verified on my razorback gauge , low dust clean clutch compartment and with that comes excellent belt life. I dont know if I got a “good” clutch or is it bad harmonics at certain rpm combined with heavy spring/heavy weight combos or something else. Not every single winder has roller issues. This thread has some good info with what others have tried and had better luck with so if the day comes my sled becomes a roller eater Ill have some good options to look into.