Bad Primary Rollers

[markt111]

clutch novice here trying to figure out multiple issues, the first is a belt blowing issue, the second is a high RPM issue.

The sled is a 2017 Sidewinder, TD Powertrail tune (260ish HP) Dalton DTAY weight set, I have been blowing belts every 400-500 miles, I just discovered 2 of 3 of my primary rollers are junk, I have ordered the Thunder Shift 14.8mm rollers to replace, all other components have been cleaned up, move freely and appear in good condition, secondary rollers were previously upgraded to thunder rollers also preventatively.

I am trying to understand the affect of the bad rollers, I assume this could be the cause of my belt blowing issue and possibly the high RPM as it would not allow the primary to open, the belt to drop, shifting appropriately?

The DTAYs are up to 80.4 grams and I still over rev, according to TD I should be around 70 grams?

Be nice guys I am pretty mechanical but trying to learn how individual components affect clutching!

 

[jonlafon1]

clutch novice here trying to figure out multiple issues, the first is a belt blowing issue, the second is a high RPM issue.

The sled is a 2017 Sidewinder, TD Powertrail tune (260ish HP) Dalton DTAY weight set, I have been blowing belts every 400-500 miles, I just discovered 2 of 3 of my primary rollers are junk, I have ordered the Thunder Shift 14.8mm rollers to replace, all other components have been cleaned up, move freely and appear in good condition, secondary rollers were previously upgraded to thunder rollers also preventatively.

I am trying to understand the affect of the bad rollers, I assume this could be the cause of my belt blowing issue and possibly the high RPM as it would not allow the primary to open, the belt to drop, shifting appropriately?

The DTAYs are up to 80.4 grams and I still over rev, according to TD I should be around 70 grams?

Be nice guys I am pretty mechanical but trying to learn how individual components affect clutching!

Okay well does the sled have a whole kit from TD? So like what springs are in the clutches and what is the secondary spring wrapped at? Holes in the cup and helix where the spring tangs go into. Depending on what holes will determine what the secondary spring is “ wrapped” at. I would say your way off what TD is saying for weight. 10 grams is a lot of difference. Also it is possible the primary spring is broken. Guys are seeing this on a few sleds. So without getting into to much detail. Check the springs. Find out what TD is wanting for springs in it with the weight they are saying 70 grams. And what the secondary spring is and what it’s wrapped at. Assuming your running the stock helix?
And obviously replace bad primary rollers.

 

[jonlafon1]

Also your offset needs to be checked. This is explained in your owners manual. And most are on the lowest side of the manual. Also you can research the hurricane offset tool. This is a tool used to get the proper offset. Most are having to machine off 2-3 mm on the stub end of the secondary clutch.

 

[markt111]

thanks for the response, I bought the sled used but from a solid guy. It has a TD kit, he had it set up when he bought by the shop so he didn't know all the specifics, hence I did an inventory the other night, took it apart cleaned, inspected and noted all parts. Both springs appear in good shape.

Primary spring: Black w/Green stripe, DTAY weights at 80.4, I had added a big slug to lower RPM

Secondary: Black spring w/Red stripe, aftermarket rollers in great shape, all rollers are contacting the helix, wrapped at 6+1, the helix only had a stamping on it 8KC50

 

[KnappAttack]

First thing I'd do is a get a Ultimax XS825 belt ordered up, in fact grab a couple of them. Throw the Yamaha belts in the garbage! Then set the offset with the Hurricane bar and get it perfect. Check your stub shaft if you have to machine off a bunch from your secondary, it will more than likely be pushed in from blowing belts. It needs to be tanken out, cleaned up and pressed back into place using green loctite on the housing and bearing to keep from moving again.

I've been dealing with what you have going on for over 3 years. I now finally have it all in the rearview mirror. As for rollers, well, it seems the Winder primary eats them for breakfast, even the Thunder rollers. I've gone to the old RX-1 clutch to fix the roller eating and binding primary clutch problems.

I am still wrapping the B/O secondary spring to over 90* to keep a hold on the belt, if I try and run less it slips, and the 825 belt grips MUCH better than any Yamaha belt. Every sled will be different this way.

 

[actionjack]

i'm no expert I'm only chiming in because your sled is described exactly the way mine is. That sounds like the TD Clutch kit. I don't see where you mention what the RPMs actually are when they're too high or what kind of exhaust do you have?

I am running the stock exhaust bundle of tunes up to 265 hp. Even on Max Spool 16 my sled could not pull empty DTYA-1s past ~8500-8600 rpm. I had to go down to QAY-70 at 73.1g. Only diff may be my 1.6 track. Or your sled is beast to pull 7+grams more.

 

[markt111]

I am running the XS825 belt just recently due to blowing 8JPs and the ,mess they make. Still seeing 9300 RPM, hopefully the rollers will help, Ill know more this weekend

I have the Hurricane alignment bar but have not checked alignment yet, that is my next step.

 

[journeyman]

First thing I'd do is a get a Ultimax XS825 belt ordered up, in fact grab a couple of them. Throw the Yamaha belts in the garbage! Then set the offset with the Hurricane bar and get it perfect. Check your stub shaft if you have to machine off a bunch from your secondary, it will more than likely be pushed in from blowing belts. It needs to be tanken out, cleaned up and pressed back into place using green loctite on the housing and bearing to keep from moving again.

I've been dealing with what you have going on for over 3 years. I now finally have it all in the rearview mirror. As for rollers, well, it seems the Winder primary eats them for breakfast, even the Thunder rollers. I've gone to the old RX-1 clutch to fix the roller eating and binding primary clutch problems.

I am still wrapping the B/O secondary spring to over 90* to keep a hold on the belt, if I try and run less it slips, and the 825 belt grips MUCH better than any Yamaha belt. Every sled will be different this way.

So you are still using the Roller secondary it looks. Did you ever try the button style secondary from a RX-1/Apex along with the RX-1 primary?

 

[markt111]

I have not, first time I’ve had to actually get in there due to issues

 

[Bigblue1]

First thing I'd do is a get a Ultimax XS825 belt ordered up, in fact grab a couple of them. Throw the Yamaha belts in the garbage! Then set the offset with the Hurricane bar and get it perfect. Check your stub shaft if you have to machine off a bunch from your secondary, it will more than likely be pushed in from blowing belts. It needs to be tanken out, cleaned up and pressed back into place using green loctite on the housing and bearing to keep from moving again.

I've been dealing with what you have going on for over 3 years. I now finally have it all in the rearview mirror. As for rollers, well, it seems the Winder primary eats them for breakfast, even the Thunder rollers. I've gone to the old RX-1 clutch to fix the roller eating and binding primary clutch problems.

I am still wrapping the B/O secondary spring to over 90* to keep a hold on the belt, if I try and run less it slips, and the 825 belt grips MUCH better than any Yamaha belt. Every sled will be different this way.

Agree 100% based on experience not knowledge of any kind as people on this site know more about clutching than I ever could. However, Knapp is right. My rollers were shot at the beginning of the season. Out TP rollers in, TP secondary rollers, TP Orange springs( both) and Dalton QAY at 74g. Machined secondary. Big difference but still not acceptable. Went to XS-825 and bingo, it all came together. 1,400 miles and counting...clean clutches, belt looks good. I'm running MAX Spool 17. I weigh 274 which makes the sled work harder too but couldn't be happier so far. Going on a big mile run in QC next week on fast and wide trails so we will see but so far so good. I think checking those rollers and replacing as needed, and keeping clutches clean in between rides is the price to pay for big hp.