Real World 1500 Mile Low Down of new Ski Doo XR-S 900 Turbo vs. SideWinder

[Sasquatch]

Without rpm there’s no power either.
Both are an equal share. Torque can be increased through gearing.
A Huey helicopter turbine engine only has a couple of foot pounds of torque yet through huge gear reduction it’s able to swing those blades and become airborne.
In the case of the Harley 88 cube vs the 96 cube. The 96 cubic inch motor has an even longer stroke than the 88, which is already an over square motor to begin with.
More torque yes but at a lower rpm.

Horsepower is the amount of work done over time (1 minute to be exact) that’s why it’s king.

You can make 1000 ft/lbs of torque with a 5 horsepower motor but the output shaft speed is only 26 rpm. Not gonna move a vehicle very fast with that!

Without torque you can have all the rpm in the world and still can't move a wheel barrow, but to answer your claim of 1,000 ft pounds of torque being useless. The 455 olds and Pontiac made only 330 hp and yet they where able to run the quarter mile against cars that made 390 plus hp at a higher rpm. Why? because they geared the cars differently and took advantage of the much higher torque at a lower rpm. Torque is the only thing a motor makes. HP is a calculation and does not exist without torque.

Harley motor makes more torque at a lower rpm. Wack the throttle it pulls harder. I raced Harleys with my Honda and even though I made more hp on top they kicked my arse around town light to light corner to corner. I think we understand the difference between a torque motor and a hp motor.

Even in a sled the torque is felt out of the corner if you clutch for it, or you wait for the engine to spool up or clutch so its always spooled up and keep the motor screaming all the time. Or you run a fourstroke engine that makes a flater torque curve and clutch it harder out of the corner or run a 1000cc two stroke that has to spool up out of a corner and falls flat on its face at top end cause torque drops off, while the fourstroke still makes torque past its peak hp and will continue to pull for even more top end. The very reason an Apex with 150 hp has a higher top end then a engine with more hp that will beat it to top end but then gets passed by the Apex. There is a reason why the Apex is a good lake racer and the answer is a flat torque curve that can pull well past its hp peak.

You say hp is king but two motors both spinning 8500rpm the one with the most torque at that rpm has the most hp. So torque is king hp is the calculation.

 

[Sasquatch]

You don’t clutch a snowmobile at it peak torque number rpm now do you? Hell no it would be a dog.

You clutch it at the peak horsepower rpm, then it rips your arms off!

True you do just that but you calculate hp with torque lower torque lower hp. You can clutch a snowmobile to take advantage of torque and hp both.

 

[74Nitro]

Without torque you can have all the rpm in the world and still can't move a wheel barrow, but to answer your claim of 1,000 ft pounds of torque being useless. The 455 olds and Pontiac made only 330 hp and yet they where able to run the quarter mile against cars that made 390 plus hp at a higher rpm. Why? because they geared the cars differently and took advantage of the much higher torque at a lower rpm. Torque is the only thing a motor makes. HP is a calculation and does not exist without torque.

Harley motor makes more torque at a lower rpm. Wack the throttle it pulls harder. I raced Harleys with my Honda and even though I made more hp on top they kicked my arse around town light to light corner to corner. I think we understand the difference between a torque motor and a hp motor.

Even in a sled the torque is felt out of the corner if you clutch for it, or you wait for the engine to spool up or clutch so its always spooled up and keep the motor screaming all the time. Or you run a fourstroke engine that makes a flater torque curve and clutch it harder out of the corner or run a 1000cc two stroke that has to spool up out of a corner and falls flat on its face at top end cause torque drops off, while the fourstroke still makes torque past its peak hp and will continue to pull for even more top end. The very reason an Apex with 150 hp has a higher top end then a engine with more hp that will beat it to top end but then gets passed by the Apex. There is a reason why the Apex is a good lake racer and the answer is a flat torque curve that can pull well past its hp peak.

You say hp is king but two motors both spinning 8500rpm the one with the most torque at that rpm has the most hp. So torque is king hp is the calculation.

In your last paragraph, you actually made the argument for horsepower.

 

[74Nitro]

this new oxygen helmet,who makes it? Most all of my Doo helmets work well w/or w/out glass,s.

It's the latest Doo helmet.

 

[SPM]

True you do just that but you calculate hp with torque lower torque lower hp. You can clutch a snowmobile to take advantage of torque and hp both.

Torque × RPM ÷ 5250 = HP.

 

[ClutchMaster]

In your last paragraph, you actually made the argument for horsepower.

He doesn’t get it.

It’s useless to argue with a Sasquatch they have very thick & hairy skulls to go along with their oversized feet.

Get a diesel then

 

[KnappAttack]

He doesn’t get it.

It’s useless to argue with a Sasquatch they have very thick & hairy skulls to go along with their oversized feet.

Get a diesel then

So right. HP wins every time even with less TQ. let’s see if he get it.

HP is the only thing that matters, along with a wide power-band to drive thru. I’ll take less tq and more RPM all day long for the win in a snowmobile.

 

[74Nitro]

So right. HP wins every time even with less TQ. let’s see if he get it.

HP is the only thing that matters, along with a wide power-band to drive thru. I’ll take less tq and more RPM all day long for the win in a snowmobile.

Exactly why your Vmax4 was so fast.

 

[Crossfire12]

So right. HP wins every time even with less TQ. let’s see if he get it.

HP is the only thing that matters, along with a wide power-band to drive thru. I’ll take less tq and more RPM all day long for the win in a snowmobile.

Rpm top end ? long distance, not 660 right?

 

[Fast]

Exactly why your Vmax4 was so fast.

Ya almost as fast as Tiina's doo

 

[krm]

Ya almost as fast as Tinna's doo

Tina D

 

[ClutchMaster]

Rpm top end ? long distance, not 660 right?

Nope, in all instances hp is king if your properly geared/clutched.
You can manufacture more torque through gearing.
Let’s say you have 60 ft/lbs torque @ 6000 rpm and 53 ft/lbs @ 8000 rpm. Clutch the sled for 6000 rpm at lets say 25 mph. Sled feels 100cc smaller than it is, doggy!
Ok now re-clutch for 8000 rpm peak horsepower.
The clutches will effectively put you into a lower gear ratio @ 25 mph, multiplying the torque at the same 25 mph.
The math is 8000/6000=1.333 that’s our gear ratio multiplier.
This number can effectively be multiplied by the actual torque at 8000 rpm to give us our new torque value with the gear reduction from the clutches. 1.333 x 53 ft/lbs = 70.5 ft/lbs

70.5 ft/lbs is more than 60 ft/lbs so you gained a lot more torque at the track allowing the engine to rev up to peak horsepower.

Horsepower is the amount of work done in a certain period of time, therefore it is king. Does not matter if it’s 66’ or 660’ or 6,600’

Diesel engines are heavy and not suited for racing but they last forever and they are efficient because the rpm’s are low. You could easily use a high performance turbocharged gasoline engine with the same horsepower to move that eighteen wheeler but it would need a HUGE amount of gear reduction and a engine rebuild every time you stop for fuel.

 

[74Nitro]

What years was Tina running drags in the USA? I raced against her many times in Ontario in the COSDRA circuit. A stock. She was running a Mach 800.
One of the few dedicated racers.

 

[YukonMP]

Nope, in all instances hp is king if your properly geared/clutched.
You can manufacture more torque through gearing.
Let’s say you have 60 ft/lbs torque @ 6000 rpm and 53 ft/lbs @ 8000 rpm. Clutch the sled for 6000 rpm at lets say 25 mph. Sled feels 100cc smaller than it is, doggy!
Ok now re-clutch for 8000 rpm peak horsepower.
The clutches will effectively put you into a lower gear ratio @ 25 mph, multiplying the torque at the same 25 mph.
The math is 8000/6000=1.333 that’s our gear ratio multiplier.
This number can effectively be multiplied by the actual torque at 8000 rpm to give us our new torque value with the gear reduction from the clutches. 1.333 x 53 ft/lbs = 70.5 ft/lbs

70.5 ft/lbs is more than 60 ft/lbs so you gained a lot more torque at the track allowing the engine to rev up to peak horsepower.

Horsepower is the amount of work done in a certain period of time, therefore it is king. Does not matter if it’s 66’ or 660’ or 6,600’

Diesel engines are heavy and not suited for racing but they last forever and they are efficient because the rpm’s are low. You could easily use a high performance turbocharged gasoline engine with the same horsepower to move that eighteen wheeler but it would need a HUGE amount of gear reduction and a engine rebuild every time you stop for fuel.

Clutchmaster, thanks for this, I'm slowly wrapping my mind around this. Could you say something about the performance difference between a typical hypothetical 2 stroke versus a typical hypothetical 4 stroke of equal horsepower.

As an aside, spring ordering a sled seems to stretch time by a factor of 10 ... IS IT ONLY MAY!!!

 

[KnappAttack]

Rpm top end ? long distance, not 660 right?

Nope, even in 60 foot HP wins. What most don't realize is you want HP with a wide powerband below peak HP RPM though. Bottom line is less TQ with higher RPM HP is faster and quicker. TQ does nothing without RPM. You can put 1000 FT LBS on a shaft and without RPM no work gets done.

Clutchmaster, thanks for this, I'm slowly wrapping my mind around this. Could you say something about the performance difference between a typical hypothetical 2 stroke versus a typical hypothetical 4 stroke of equal horsepower. As an aside, spring ordering a sled seems to stretch time by a factor of 10 ... IS IT ONLY MAY!!!

Same HP will run the same being equal weight.

The difference will lie with how wide the powerband is on the two-stroke. High RPM two-strokes will always have wider powerbands than say a lower RPM two-stroke, even though the low RPM two-stroke has more and higher TQ it will lose to the higher RPM two-stroke with less TQ but higher RPM in the field both making the same HP. The Higher RPM engine with less TQ can also take advantage of a wider RPM spread and gear lower also multiplying the TQ being seen at the tracks front drive. High RPM with less TQ is a win-win.

Ya almost as fast as Tinna's doo

Interesting, as I still own the 800 class record to this day with the V-Max4.

My 800 was faster than the 1000's back in the day and still faster than most 1000's to ever hit the track. Not many 1000's have been quicker than I ran with my little 800. No 800 Doo, Polaris or Cat compares to my old V-Max4 800. There was a reason they all bitched about it, and it. It was so intimidating to the 1000's, that many great racers retired or gave up because they got beat and even drove around by my 800 on their 1000's. One highly respected racer threw his helmet down after I won the 1000 class at the series and said the day I can't beat a lousy 800 with my 1000 is the day I retire, and he did. That was the last time we ever raced against him. Many just gave up ice racing. And it happened year after year at the series in the 1000 class, proving the little V-max4 800 was for real, not winning it just one year, but year after year after year. Thats domination