Real World 1500 Mile Low Down of new Ski Doo XR-S 900 Turbo vs. SideWinder

[Sasquatch]

"I ran two strokes for years and when I went to 4 strokes I was amazed by the quicker pull of a sled with less hp that had the same top end as a two stroke with more hp."
This statement is wrong because an Apex had the SAME hp as most 800's of the day, 150-155.
Therefore, your statement should read - "I ran two strokes for years and when I went to 4 strokes I was amazed by the quicker pull of a sled with less torque that had the same top end as a two stroke with more torque."
This would be true since the most torque an 800 had was 100ish, while the Apex peaked about 83ish.
You were amazed by the horsepower.

Sorry your wrong. two stroke 172hp! Warrior 140ish! Don't forget gear reduction increases torque at clutch speed while hp stays the same.

 

[1nc 2000]

Depends on rpm's, age, girth, alcohol content, LDL count, single or married and most importantly if you had sex within 2 hours of the event.

P.S: Peeing after sex can be strenuous due to a split stream requiring more torque
P.S2: If you don't know what a split stream is.......................................get a divorce!

What your saying is if your crank is bent and your piston rings are have lots of blow by, the hp numbers will be down unless it just had a freshen up.

 

[Sasquatch]

Apex motor has only 77 ft/lbs of torque that’s like a 600cc motor from the early 90’s bro.
It’s all horsepower and gear reduction.
You just proved yourself wrong.

Not sure what that had to do with what I said? It is of course about gear reduction so do the 77ft/pds at clutch speed with gear reduction and torque climbs to 100ish so that would prove what you said as wrong. But lets get back to what I said two motors turning 8500 one motor makes more torque at 8500 so does that motor make more hp at 8500? If you think torque is not important then you really need to look at how hp is calculated. Tq X rpm divided by 5252. Increase torque at any rpm and hp increases with it. If you think torque is not important plug 0 torque into the formula and see what you get for hp!

 

[Sasquatch]

HP is a factor of torque. You build or design your engine to take advantage of the intended use. If you want a high rpm high HP engine you need to build it so the torque will carry to the upper RPM and not fall off. This could be a combination of cams, intake and head port design all of which will move or determine the torque curve. You will have zero HP if you have zero torque as its a mathematical calculation based off the torque curve of the engine. In drag racing you design the engine to carry the torque over a broad range of rpm and hold it to make bug smoke up top. When the vehicle shifts or pulls the rpm down you want it to sweep that torque to keep the vehicle at max acceleration and pull back to max RPM as fast as possible as your max RPM should be your max HP number as well. This falls in no matter if its a car, sled, mini bike......

Example
7800RPM 800lbs TQ 1188hp
8000RPM 800lbs TQ 1218hp
8200RPM 800lbs TQ 1249hp

Yep broader the torque band more hp on top.

 

[Sasquatch]

The debate was what’s what’s more important Horsepower or torque. Many times you’ll here meatheads say “It’s only 125 horsepower BUT it’s got gobs of torque so it’s just as fast”
False statement ^^^
This was the selling point for the “Big Twins” and the phasing out of the Triple 2 strokes.
Hence the question what’s more important?

Both are important, torque accelerates the motor to peak hp by increasing the hp at a lower rpm. My big triple took more time to spool up then the big twin. My big triple was faster then the big twin. My Warrior was as fast as my big triple same weight same track length and taller lug less hp. Triple hp fell off past peak fast so did big twin. Warrior did not fall off suddenly past peak hp because torque was still being produced so it would rev past it and increase speed with less hp.

I agree on the marketing of twins but we all know twins where cheaper to build and cheaper to warranty, I think that was a big factor in the triples demise.

 

[Sasquatch]

Because some people do not seem to understand torque

Winder is making 122ft/pds at 8800 clutch speed to make 204hp. It makes over 120 pds of torque for over 3,000 rpm. Talk about a torque monster!

Apex engine at 77ft/pds 10600rpm = 156hp. Apex engine with gear reduction increases torque to 97ft/pds 8500rpm clutch speed = 156hp. Gear reduction changes torque not hp.

100 ft/pds 8500rpm = 161 Think Apex
102.5ft/pds 8500rpm = 165
105 ft/pds 8500rpm = 169
122 ft/pds 8500rpm = 197 Think Sidewinder
122ft/pds 8800rpm = 204 "
115ft/pds 9100rpm = 199 "

So if you can just increase torque by 2.5 ft/pds you get 4 more hp, by 5 you are rewarded with 8 more hp. If torque curve is flat then hp stays close to peak. Yet torque is not important? Less torque less hp. more torque more hp. 22ft/ps of torque gets you 40 more hp, so you winder guys didn't want that torque? Why? Obviously it worked out for you!

So to say torque is not important only hp is simply not true, they are directly related and the flatter the curve the better.

 

[Sasquatch]

Total misinformation but what the heck, at least it’s one more post closer to 200 pages!

Where ever you live (nobody knows), there must be some good Herbs growing in the woods!

View attachment 148663

Hmmm what are you trying to say? Be more specific!

 

[Kenneth Rogers]

Nope, even in 60 foot HP wins. What most don't realize is you want HP with a wide powerband below peak HP RPM though. Bottom line is less TQ with higher RPM HP is faster and quicker. TQ does nothing without RPM. You can put 1000 FT LBS on a shaft and without RPM no work gets done.



Same HP will run the same being equal weight.

The difference will lie with how wide the powerband is on the two-stroke. High RPM two-strokes will always have wider powerbands than say a lower RPM two-stroke, even though the low RPM two-stroke has more and higher TQ it will lose to the higher RPM two-stroke with less TQ but higher RPM in the field both making the same HP. The Higher RPM engine with less TQ can also take advantage of a wider RPM spread and gear lower also multiplying the TQ being seen at the tracks front drive. High RPM with less TQ is a win-win.




Interesting, as I still own the 800 class record to this day with the V-Max4.

My 800 was faster than the 1000's back in the day and still faster than most 1000's to ever hit the track. Not many 1000's have been quicker than I ran with my little 800. No 800 Doo, Polaris or Cat compares to my old V-Max4 800. There was a reason they all bitched about it, and it. It was so intimidating to the 1000's, that many great racers retired or gave up because they got beat and even drove around by my 800 on their 1000's. One highly respected racer threw his helmet down after I won the 1000 class at the series and said the day I can't beat a lousy 800 with my 1000 is the day I retire, and he did. That was the last time we ever raced against him. Many just gave up ice racing. And it happened year after year at the series in the 1000 class, proving the little V-max4 800 was for real, not winning it just one year, but year after year after year. Thats domination

A good friend of mine owns that vmax now. It is an awesome machine. Scary fast almost.

 

[VX1R]

Depends on rpm's, age, girth, alcohol content, LDL count, single or married and most importantly if you had sex within 2 hours of the event.

P.S: Peeing after sex can be strenuous due to a split stream requiring more torque
P.S2: If you don't know what a split stream is.......................................get a divorce!

Well I started this thread over a year ago. Lot's of good information and opinions shared. It's "Summertime and the Livin's Easy" as the lyrics of the song goes. I'm pretty sure that stevewithOCD has pretty much captured the twists and turns that this thread has taken recently and I'm anxious to see where we go from here. Cheers Lads!

 

[ClutchMaster]

Well I started this thread over a year ago. Lot's of good information and opinions shared. It's "Summertime and the Livin's Easy" as the lyrics of the song goes. I'm pretty sure that stevewithOCD has pretty much captured the twists and turns that this thread has taken recently and I'm anxious to see where we go from here. Cheers Lads!

Actually i think it was more sublime but yea that one too^^^^

 

[ClutchMaster]

Can an engine with 100 ft/lbs of torque be faster than one with 150 ft/lbs of torque? All things being equal as far as the chassis is concerned of course.

Can an engine with 100 horsepower be faster than one with 150 horsepower? All things being equal as far as the chassis is concerned of course.

#*$&@ can’t be that confusing is it?

 

[ClutchMaster]

Depends on rpm's, age, girth, alcohol content, LDL count, single or married and most importantly if you had sex within 2 hours of the event.

P.S: Peeing after sex can be strenuous due to a split stream requiring more torque
P.S2: If you don't know what a split stream is.......................................get a divorce!

Isn’t that when you pee in the toilet and your shoe at the same time?

P.S. I’m not married

P.S.S. That’s formula is a lot more complicated than torque & horsepower, although I’d rather try and figure that out instead of that post by the hairy money man.
Please elaborate!

 

[KnappAttack]

A good friend of mine owns that vmax now. It is an awesome machine. Scary fast almost.

Don’t tell the sasquatch, because it has inadequate TQ, and will lay absolute waste to his sidewinder. According to him it can’t get out of its own way because of the lack of TQ. Must be FAKE NEWS!


TQ this and TQ that. Laughable. HP and RPM wins races. If it didn’t, F1 cars and superbikes wouldn’t be spinning up around 20000 RPM. Raw HP and RPM is what matters, not big TQ.

 

[74Nitro]

Because some people do not seem to understand torque

Winder is making 122ft/pds at 8800 clutch speed to make 204hp. It makes over 120 pds of torque for over 3,000 rpm. Talk about a torque monster!

Apex engine at 77ft/pds 10600rpm = 156hp. Apex engine with gear reduction increases torque to 97ft/pds 8500rpm clutch speed = 156hp. Gear reduction changes torque not hp.

100 ft/pds 8500rpm = 161 Think Apex
102.5ft/pds 8500rpm = 165
105 ft/pds 8500rpm = 169
122 ft/pds 8500rpm = 197 Think Sidewinder
122ft/pds 8800rpm = 204 "
115ft/pds 9100rpm = 199 "

So if you can just increase torque by 2.5 ft/pds you get 4 more hp, by 5 you are rewarded with 8 more hp. If torque curve is flat then hp stays close to peak. Yet torque is not important? Less torque less hp. more torque more hp. 22ft/ps of torque gets you 40 more hp, so you winder guys didn't want that torque? Why? Obviously it worked out for you!

So to say torque is not important only hp is simply not true, they are directly related and the flatter the curve the better.

Oh dear. Apples to oranges. Now you want to compare crankshaft torque to non-crankshaft torque. An Apex engine doesn't make 100 ft/pds of torque. As I stated earlier it makes 83ish, yet is as fast as an engine that makes 100 ft/lbs. All due to HP.

 

[74Nitro]

Sorry your wrong. two stroke 172hp! Warrior 140ish! Don't forget gear reduction increases torque at clutch speed while hp stays the same.

"Don't forget gear reduction increases torque at the clutch while hp stays the same."
The definition of horsepower is the rate at which work is done.
Therefore, you are actually making the case for horsepower, you just don't realize it.