Survey: Yamaha Factory is Listening

[Ruckus]

The other issue that needs to be addressed and I pointed it out in the survey is the balance of the sleds. They are all way to front end heavy. They need to lower the motors and pull them back some. I feel that the rear exit exhaust hinders them in many ways as well. With having the rear exit exhaust, they have to run a smaller gas tank, ice build up is just rediculous and there always seems to be a studding issue. If they spun the motor around (like the XR 1200 or the Cat 1100) you would eliminate weight on the front end, lower the motor and have a better balance, because then you could put the tank under the seat towards the back of the seat, which balances out the weight of the 4 stroke motor. The minimal gains from the rear straight shot from the exhaust are minimal and cause more issues from it then anything.

THIS! I find that due to the high engine, high gas tank and 20 lb high mounted exhaust its a bear to pull on its side. Once it hits the tipping point however, its gone...and very difficult to right again for the same reason. This also causes the machine to want to follow the fall line rather than across the hill. If you fight it it wants to tip, if you don't it wants to turn downhill. After riding a few Cats, Polaris' and BRP's this winter I was amazed at how confidently you can rip across any terrain whether it be flat or on a sidehill. I didn't realize how hard I was fighting my machine. If there is no powder and sidehilling is inevitable then I have to put my calf on the seat, lower my #*$&@ to the running board and use the left hand throttle so I don't tip it over or run it down the fall line.
I started snowmobiling on a Yamaha Phazer (coming from snowboarding as my primary winter sport) so I thought all snowmobiles were this way. Once I rode "normal" machines I could not believe how much they lack and how difficult to drive they are. I am currently looking for a used Backcountry X or Renegade XP until I see how the new Cats are holding up, at which point I will be riding a new AC. Unless Yamaha pulls something huge out of a hat, I will never own another again. Brand loyalty only goes so far with me.

 

[AKrider]

There are a lot of good and legitmate issues being brought up in this thread. For anyone who has been active on this forum for a while or rides their sled aggressively, the issues are not a surprise.

The Deltabox chassis is 10 years old. The Nytro is in desperate need of a handling upgrade. It's time for Yamaha to come out with a new chassis that is the same across all the models. They had the right idea with the '97 Vmax chassis, just drop different engines into the same basic chassis and use bolt on components to taylor it for each model segement.

The rear exhaust should be dropped. The icing it creates in the tunnel makes a heavy sled even heavier! It also reduced the gas tank size which is not accepible now that the DI 2-strokes are able to provide similar range.

I think it is unfortunate that some of the posters on this thread are so brand loyal that they cannot admit there are problems. Yamaha's are heavy and the chassis could be made to be lighter without durability problems or added expense. The Nytro, Apex and Vector motors are great, the sleds need to be improved so they handle better and are lighter.

 

[Sled Dog]

I think its more in the line of what some see as problems others do not. The ones that do not have as much right to their opinion as the ones that do. I do own a 04 rx mountain sled but I ride it cross country on non trails in open fields and if I am on a trail it is a non groomed trail. Do I jump my sled? Not as general rule my sled was not designed to jump. Do I ride hard on it? If you have ever gone across a non groomed farmers feild that has rough wind swept moguls on it WFO I consider that hard riding the sled takes a beating and the weight for that kind of riding helps bust through them and keeps it stable and I can keep up with all the other brands no problem. Is the weight a problem? To me not a biggie I am a big guy and I have learned to use it to my advantage. Some say it is a problem so be it to me it is not. The sledding industry is not built around ditch banging ditch jumping sledders. Does my sled have problems to me not really this is the first time I have ever had to really work on it due to the speedo bearing going with 6500 miles on the sled and never even looking at it. I think thats pretty good and even when it did go it got me home. Thats what I like about my sled it gets me home every time does not use a drop of oil and the sliders last for years with the kind of riding I do. Its unfortunate some can only see problems and not the benefits of their Yamaha sled. If its not a problem to the owner of the sled then to him its not a problem. Its why I still ride the same sled. It does everything I need it to do and it does it well. On a few Manitoba TY rides I took my 04 rx1 mountain on the ride and I kept up with everyone so again to me the handling and weight is not biggie I have learned to ride it and ride it quite well. I still love riding it. Its like everything each to his own I guess.

 

[SledFreak]

They had the right idea with the '97 Vmax chassis, just drop different engines into the same basic chassis and use bolt on components to taylor it for each model segement.

Bingo... I have been saying this for a while now. Cat and Doo have gone in this direction. I would also be willng to bet, that Yamaha would make more money going this route... One common chassis. Lets face sno-x is dead.... Do you really need to fill that segment at this time in this econmomy. I think it was great that all OEMs went that route, because they pushed the limits as to what works and what does not for trail, off trail, mountain etc.... But, I believe its time to get back to the basic and make what most people want...

 

[Grimm]

Wow has this thread brought out some opinions and emotions on what Yamaha should address...many that I agree with.

Listening is one thing...doing something about it is another.

 

[rindtj]

I feel bad for Chris having to read all these, and the worst part is the snowmobile dealers, reps, and execs here in the states and in Canada have probably tried to drive home these points for at least 4 years to no avail. I think the two best ideas are getting rid of the rear exiting exhaust or making sure I don't lug around 30 lbs of ice because of it and changing to a single chassis for all models and dropping in some of these great motors.

The engineers must know what they are doing, they make heavy, relatively underpowered snowmobiles run with sleds they have no business running with. Yet they can't figure out exhaust donuts, slides, and a arm bushings? Whats more they don't fix these issues after FIVE YEARS. I mean someone must test these things and realize this stuff breaks. It is frustrating to say the least and makes it seem like they just don't care.

And I can honestly say that the weight of my snowmobile isn't a huge issue for me, I ride tight trails relatively hard and don't get tired, but I get nervous over every bump weighting for a W arm to crack, or the sled to roll over. These issues may not be a function of weight (and if they added 10 lbs. and made it corner flatter I would be perfectly happy in my situation) but come on guys, the issue with other OEM's has been engine quality and lack of competitive 4 stroke performance options. I have friends that ride other brands and yes my sled feels much more stable with fewer rattles while cruising, but they don't have anywhere near the premature wear and suspension issues we do- and they way MUCH less. What parts that are so heavy on our sleds are saving us from problems that the lighter sleds have?

Now all this being said I love my Apex and am getting where I want it- and for the money and the amount of snowmobile I got it IS the nicest snowmobile I could afford to buy. But when it comes time to upgrade, unless things change, it is going to be hard to stay on blue when you look at progress that has been made by others.

 

[Off Trail Mike]

I think this will be my last thread on this posting, and I really hope Chris does read thru this post, as there are many, many solid questions being raised that manufacturers need to consider.

I'll summarize my points, and sorry for the BRP comparison, its just as relevant for Polaris or Arctic Cat, I just know doo's line better.

1. You need ditchbangers. Why? They're evolutionary. The REV and REV/XP platform started out as a DB, and spawned the GSX and similar "boulevard cruisers" .... and most of their other sleds too for that matter!

2. Light weight and durablity are not mutually exclusive. The BRP Renegade 1200 is much lighter (with a heavier engine), AND is rock solid reiable, AND you can absolutely beat them thru the bumps (I ride with one all the time....and it's never been towed it in 2 years)....Lighter solid sleds are being built.

3. Single Platform with variants is cheaper and easier to develop, and to some degree yamaha is moving this way. Component carry over is already there.

4. Use your owners, dealers, and teams to improve testing. It's impossible to get every component right the first time, which is why new models of anything usually have recalls. The trick to fixing problems is do it cheaper and faster, and this requires a network of "interested parties" to get the testing miles in as fast as possible.

5. I love my yamaha, because my dealer is awesome, and after 30 years of two strokes, that Nytro engine is a beautiful thing. If I were yamaha, I would worry about spending 10 long years to show snowmobilers that you can put a high performance 4 stroke in a sled, only to have your loyal customers defect to high performance 4 strokes from other OEM's, because your chassis is out of date. Seems such a waste of hard work.

OTM

 

[Srxspec]

Do I think any of the Yamaha lineup is terrible right now? No!

The Apex is great, with the power steering it is light and nimble in the trail and the Monoshock II suspension is much better than the original version!

The Vector is a "quiet giant" as it will beat or run with many of the other manufacturers bigger sleds from 0-90 mph (which is probably 95% of the general trail riders needs), it handles great and the ride again, is great!

The FX Nytro model is a great machine through many different types of trail conditions and has amazing low end & midrange torque!

The Phazer model is a great "entry class" sled which is a blast to ride as well, I just wish the price could be made more affordable and it would probably get more people into the market and onto Yamaha!

All models need to be setup properly or some small upgrades to get them to handle in the conditions that you ride in. 99% of the time I will bolt on different skis and tweak the suspension to make the sled ride/handle the way I want it (and this will cover me @ 175 lbs to my father at 240 lbs). Could the shock valving be better? Yes! Could many small things be made better? Yes

I just look at what these sleds do in the trail and against the competition and then start looking over the sleds and see areas that can be made better and how that would improve the performance as well as make them more appealing to a wider range of riders, resulting in more sales!

 

[Ruckus]

I agree. They are a fine trail machine. In comparison, I prefer to drive a Jeep rather than a Camry.

 

[Yamaha Sled Talk Blog]

Chrs, where can I get this jacket?? (the red and white one)

Coolest looking Yamaha jacket I've ever seen!!

That jacket was available in 2008, special edition 40th anniversary, none left in our stock perhaps you may find one in dealer inventory, not sure if NV ordered any to sell in Europe... you'd look damn fine in one!! cheers cr

 

[blue rider]

A lot has been said here and sometimes the truth hurts. People don't want to hear or admit it but the bottom line is we (yamaha) are too heavy! Some people believe that is why they are so durable because they're built like a tank. Design proper skis that don't dart, fine tune the steering geometry, loose a 100lbs, then you will discover you don't need power steering. There you just dropped 30lbs.

It frustrates me that a company like this which builds supreme motorcycles continues to be content with being last in sales. Skidoo and cat's 4-stroke weight is for real and and they have shown everybody that 4-strokes don't have to be heavy. They too have the durability and are as good or better in the gas mileage war. They are beating us at our own game that we invented. It reminds of the 87' exciter era and then polaris came out with their 500'. Remember how that went?

About Chris's survey I don't believe that will change anything. Remember all the other surveys that Yamaha put out including colour choices and options? I don't recall anything becoming of them. This is not Yamaha's survey so I don't see anything becoming of this either. I hope they prove me wrong.

Not bashing here guys just giving my opinion. I'm all blue but things have got to change around here and I mean in the next year or so (2013-14) or I too will be leaving camp to buy my next sled!

 

[4x4]

The 570 exciter did not lose to the Indy 500, it lost to the XLT which had a really perfect sounding smooth engine. Polaris lost their way when they quit building three cylinder snowmobiles and are hurting for it.

 

[AKrider]

I find it encouraging that Chris is actively reading this thread and asked for the survey to be posted on other forums. I saw it posted on Dootalk and the replies to that thread were not too negative.

 

[TurboJamie]

I find it encouraging that Chris is actively reading this thread and asked for the survey to be posted on other forums. I saw it posted on Dootalk and the replies to that thread were not too negative.

For whatever reason, Yamaha has a tradition of introducing innovative products and then continues to produce them pretty much unchanged year after year. The competition then quickly catches up and surpasses them. Look at the Rhino, the Nytro, the Wolverine and I'm sure it's present in their other product lines which I'm not familiar with. For off-road, if it isn't a YZ or a YFZ 450 quad, forget about any major changes. They typically let their models languish, sales drop and then the bean counters probably say it's not cost effective to update them because their sales numbers don't justify it. Well duh! If the other OEM's are offering a higher performance product for a lower or similar price in the same category, that's where people are going to spend their money. Their snowmachine lineup has been ignored for too long.

On paper, the new F1100 Cat and its variants look like a much better performing sled than either the Nytro or Vector. The Apex will still be in a class of its own, but I believe you can buy a turbo 1100 for less than the Apex. I think Yamaha is going to get its #*$&@ handed to them in sales this next season. I feel sorry for any single line Yamaha dealers who rely on sled sales to get them through the winter.

I jumped to a kitty this season it makes sesne for me. Went with the XF 1100 Turbo LE. The Apex here in Canada is around 17k, the cat was 13,500 the day I signed. Hard to justify the difference in price.
Not that I am in the market for a yamaha anytime soon just an observation.

The 06 Apex GT I had WAS a fantastic sled and was awesome in its time. Even the new one IMO was outdated before it hit the snow, my opinion ofcourse. I did own an 08 Nytro and that is what finished my Yamaha career until something drastically different comes along.

 

[kinger]

I dont know about you guys, but when I get done with a day of riding my yammie, I'm all smiles. Although mine is hardly stock and extemely customized, its still a yammie at heart. What I love most is that I can supercharge it and have it live on 91 gas, blow away almost any mod 2 stroke, handles as good as I can ride with a full suspension swap, looks better then any sled on the planet with the H2O graphics, etc. You get my point NO other sled would let me customize it like I have and still be reliable and as low of maintenance.

Seems to be too much bench racing and paper comparisons going on, till we ride the new cat we can't say anything about it.

Yammie does everything good, some things excellent. Dont think for a second that hyfax, bogies, suspension breaking is a ramapant issue. It is on here because it happend to a few people and they are on here looking for a solution and to complain about it. I know a lot of stock yammie guys that only change oil once a year and never touch a thing.

As long as they keep innovating it will be a good thing.