ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
For many years Yamaha has had the reputation of building fine snowmobiles with durable high performance engines, clutches, and chain drive systems (the entire power train), as well as having the best fit and finish in the industry.
Unfortunately Yamaha also has the reputation of building suspensions that are susceptible to fatigue failures at higher miles. The w-arm (pivot arm) has been the part that is "most famous" for regularly suffering from fatigue cracks, but slide rail cracks and now idler bearing and wheel failures have been occurring on the 2005 RX-1's too.
Maybe we can help steer Yamaha with regards to what their customers (us) want regarding their suspensions.
The way I see it there are 5 basic options. What do you want?
- Substantially strengthen the weaker areas (w-arm, rails, any other weak links) at the expense of a little weight (likely in the 2-5 lbs range). I don’t want to see any suspension part failures before my buddies riding Doo’s, Cat's, Poo's in the same conditions do.
- Leave the structural parts as they are. Most of us manage 5000 kms/3000 miles relatively trouble free anyway.
- Strengthen the weaker areas using stronger, more exotic materials and ensure no extra weight is added. The extra $100 - $200 would be worth it.
- Continue to lighten the sled using more exotic materials leaving the durability as is. The extra $100 - $200 would be worth the weight savings.
- Use exotic materials and beef the suspension up to the extreme. I want my sled to be able to survive skipping over the top of 3 foot moguls at full throttle and landing it from 15 feet in the air on solid ground. The extra $300+ and a few extra lbs would be worth it.
Unfortunately Yamaha also has the reputation of building suspensions that are susceptible to fatigue failures at higher miles. The w-arm (pivot arm) has been the part that is "most famous" for regularly suffering from fatigue cracks, but slide rail cracks and now idler bearing and wheel failures have been occurring on the 2005 RX-1's too.
Maybe we can help steer Yamaha with regards to what their customers (us) want regarding their suspensions.
The way I see it there are 5 basic options. What do you want?
- Substantially strengthen the weaker areas (w-arm, rails, any other weak links) at the expense of a little weight (likely in the 2-5 lbs range). I don’t want to see any suspension part failures before my buddies riding Doo’s, Cat's, Poo's in the same conditions do.
- Leave the structural parts as they are. Most of us manage 5000 kms/3000 miles relatively trouble free anyway.
- Strengthen the weaker areas using stronger, more exotic materials and ensure no extra weight is added. The extra $100 - $200 would be worth it.
- Continue to lighten the sled using more exotic materials leaving the durability as is. The extra $100 - $200 would be worth the weight savings.
- Use exotic materials and beef the suspension up to the extreme. I want my sled to be able to survive skipping over the top of 3 foot moguls at full throttle and landing it from 15 feet in the air on solid ground. The extra $300+ and a few extra lbs would be worth it.
Snorover
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TOP PRIORITY IS "RELIABILITY" 
JDKRXW
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
It seems to me that there has been quite a big step backwards with the 05 mono-shock as far as reliability goes. The 03's and 04's were not trouble free, but they seem to be bullet proof when compared to the new ones.
I don't know what they were thinking when the grease zerks were deleted, and that broken rail problem has me really wondering if I would buy an 06 sled at all (I'm guessing but I will bet that a set of new rails, after warranty has expired will cost $400-$500.
I'm sure Yamaha has statistics such as how many miles their 'average' customer rides per year etc., and I think they would be very wise to design their skids so that Joe 'average' doesn't have to pull the skid for 3 seasons.
I don't know what they were thinking when the grease zerks were deleted, and that broken rail problem has me really wondering if I would buy an 06 sled at all (I'm guessing but I will bet that a set of new rails, after warranty has expired will cost $400-$500.
I'm sure Yamaha has statistics such as how many miles their 'average' customer rides per year etc., and I think they would be very wise to design their skids so that Joe 'average' doesn't have to pull the skid for 3 seasons.
LazyBastard
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I have a few things to say;
First, for option #4:
Use exotic materials and beef the suspension up to the extreme.
--- it wouldn't be a $300 change. At the bulk rate that Yamaha buys their raw materials, and given that it wouldn't be any more complicated to make, it would probably be around $0.50 difference. It would only add significantly to the cost if they offered it as an OPTION, which would be offered at sucker price.
Second, the REASON for a lack of durability....
The cost of a set of rails is negligible. Same goes for every component, so warranty repairs don't cost them much, BUT, once the warranty expires, its $400-$500 in GRAVEY every time you break a set of rails. The other brands have ENGINE failures at about the same rate as these have suspension failures. Kinda equalizes things.
Believe me, they know *exactly* how long every part will last under all types of use. They are planned so that they can keep on profiting even after the initial sale. If the sleds were *perfect* (which is definitely within their capacity), then every sale would be like loosing a customer.
First, for option #4:
Use exotic materials and beef the suspension up to the extreme.
--- it wouldn't be a $300 change. At the bulk rate that Yamaha buys their raw materials, and given that it wouldn't be any more complicated to make, it would probably be around $0.50 difference. It would only add significantly to the cost if they offered it as an OPTION, which would be offered at sucker price.
Second, the REASON for a lack of durability....
The cost of a set of rails is negligible. Same goes for every component, so warranty repairs don't cost them much, BUT, once the warranty expires, its $400-$500 in GRAVEY every time you break a set of rails. The other brands have ENGINE failures at about the same rate as these have suspension failures. Kinda equalizes things.
Believe me, they know *exactly* how long every part will last under all types of use. They are planned so that they can keep on profiting even after the initial sale. If the sleds were *perfect* (which is definitely within their capacity), then every sale would be like loosing a customer.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
LB, while I'm sure some level of failures would be more profitable with a constant customer base, the reality is Yamaha only has a relatively small portion of the market.
If they truely could build a bullet proof sled that could take on anything, be a top performer, and simply not break down, Yamaha would likely be able to grow their customer base and profits far more than in part sales.
Also, bringing in new, better performing sleds and technology will always be a good way to attract new sales from existing customers.
Finally, if Yamaha knew to expect this many failures with the suspension, why have pivot arms, slide rails, idler wheels, etc. all been out of stock for a huge percentage of the winter. If I add up all the down time for my 05 RX-1, it's been out of service about 6 weeks out of our 14 week season (43% of the time I haven't been able to use my sled!). The majority of that time has been waiting for parts. It's out of service right now and we still have snow and open trails a 1.5 hour drive from here (although after todays rain I'm sure their very close to finished). I'm now being told parts won't be available until September.
Sorry about the rant, I'm very frustrated with my sled being out of service....
If they truely could build a bullet proof sled that could take on anything, be a top performer, and simply not break down, Yamaha would likely be able to grow their customer base and profits far more than in part sales.
Also, bringing in new, better performing sleds and technology will always be a good way to attract new sales from existing customers.
Finally, if Yamaha knew to expect this many failures with the suspension, why have pivot arms, slide rails, idler wheels, etc. all been out of stock for a huge percentage of the winter. If I add up all the down time for my 05 RX-1, it's been out of service about 6 weeks out of our 14 week season (43% of the time I haven't been able to use my sled!). The majority of that time has been waiting for parts. It's out of service right now and we still have snow and open trails a 1.5 hour drive from here (although after todays rain I'm sure their very close to finished). I'm now being told parts won't be available until September.
Sorry about the rant, I'm very frustrated with my sled being out of service....
I disagree LB and agree with Rex it is the way to go to bring the sales and customer satisfaction up then the sales will improve and anything that is used will wear out. If it has the justified amount of use no one will compalin to buy new parts to fix their rides. The resale value will hold a lot longer too.
LazyBastard
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The amount of the market that they hold is irrelevant to milking that part of the market that they do have. Failure rate also doesn't seem to have any influence over the buying habits of the WHOLE part of the market that they DON'T have.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
Regardless of the reason, the consensus with us consumers is pretty clear.
We all believe that Yamaha suspensions are in general too weak. So far:
77% want it strengthened at the expense of weight
4% want it strengthened using more exotic materials
18% want it strengthened to the max and are willing to pay a fair bit for it
Not a single vote has gone to our suspensions being strong enough.
We all believe that Yamaha suspensions are in general too weak. So far:
77% want it strengthened at the expense of weight
4% want it strengthened using more exotic materials
18% want it strengthened to the max and are willing to pay a fair bit for it
Not a single vote has gone to our suspensions being strong enough.
LazyBastard said:
Well then can you explain the reason we are having so many cat, doos, and poos coming over to yami in droves. This site is where they are all coming to for info. What about the ones who dont do the internet thing there is still lots of them out there that will hear word of mouth about the competitions better sled.
LazyBastard
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Thats easy. Aside from a *few* weak parts that *might* eventually break, the other brands have ALL weak parts that WILL eventually break.
On top of that, the part that makes or breaks the sale for most is the engine. Everything else you can reinforce the crap out of.
On top of that, the part that makes or breaks the sale for most is the engine. Everything else you can reinforce the crap out of.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
Hey guys, no point arguing - we're all pro-Yamaha, all agree the RX-1 is a great machine, and all agree that there are some suspension components we would like to see stronger.
LB already broken his w-arm and when Sled Dog gets enough miles on his sled, he'll probably break his too.
Heck - I bet you both even voted for the same thing!
What did you vote for? I voted for the first option (although overkill would be OK with me too at this point).
LB already broken his w-arm and when Sled Dog gets enough miles on his sled, he'll probably break his too.
Heck - I bet you both even voted for the same thing!
What did you vote for? I voted for the first option (although overkill would be OK with me too at this point).
LazyBastard
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I voted for the 5th option, but since I'm not buying a new sled, I did it myseld.
Exotic material: Really, really thick STEEL.
Cost: $3.
Exotic material: Really, really thick STEEL.
Cost: $3.
First option and we are not arguing LB and I always shoot the breeze this way. lol
LazyBastard
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Nor am I speaking in absolutes. There is definitely a balance that they aim for - parts ARE a source of profit, but excessive necessity to replace parts will definitely drive some customers away.
4Fighter
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#5
If Yamaha's plan is to make money off of out-of-warranty parts. Then Yamaha would have to find an acceptible balance between reliability and failure. Sounds kind of risky, but a 1/2 dozen parts compared to an entire sled is worth it I guess.
IMO: word-of-mouth, or in this case, internet, could do some harm too if they continue on their present course. That being if they are deliberately leaving weak components in their product to ensure out-of-warranty replacement profit.
Lucky for Yamaha there's something called "Brand Bias"
If Yamaha's plan is to make money off of out-of-warranty parts. Then Yamaha would have to find an acceptible balance between reliability and failure. Sounds kind of risky, but a 1/2 dozen parts compared to an entire sled is worth it I guess.
IMO: word-of-mouth, or in this case, internet, could do some harm too if they continue on their present course. That being if they are deliberately leaving weak components in their product to ensure out-of-warranty replacement profit.
Lucky for Yamaha there's something called "Brand Bias"
