Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
Snakebit:
My mtx is an '11, and I had sold my '09 before I had a chance to position rivets on that chassis, so SOME of the holes might be different. Makes sense because the 08-09 tunnels and the '10 and newer are very different, so they likely have different reinforcing plates inside the tunnel, thus SOME of the rivet locations may be different..hopefully not all...
Try this: Use the pdf and line up just the lower two rivet holes (60mm gap) and see if the lower suspension mounting hole 10mm (3/8") on the pdf lines up with the mounting hole on your tunnel. The lower hole on that pdf is the stock "Yamaha" suspension mounting hole and I am pretty sure its location is the same on all the MTX models regardless of year (2008 - 2013) and even though they have different suspensions pre and post 2010.
If the answer is yes, you can use just those two rivet holes to position the plate. You may have to drill new upper rivet holes to catch your inside reinforcing plate, but that's easy.
All that PDF does is position the AC front axle "relative" to the MTX front axle position AND track driver, and as far as I know, all the MTX's share the same front axle position AND that triangluar reinforcing plate on the outside of tunnel. So you only really need the bottom two rivets holes for alignment. Also, confirm the distance from the front suspension axle bolt hole center line to the drive axle ceterline is approximately 11.75"
Maybe take a picture of your front mount on the outside of the tunnel and the reinforcing plate on the inside of the tunnel so I can compare your 09 to my 11.
Measure three times...drill once....
OTM
My mtx is an '11, and I had sold my '09 before I had a chance to position rivets on that chassis, so SOME of the holes might be different. Makes sense because the 08-09 tunnels and the '10 and newer are very different, so they likely have different reinforcing plates inside the tunnel, thus SOME of the rivet locations may be different..hopefully not all...
Try this: Use the pdf and line up just the lower two rivet holes (60mm gap) and see if the lower suspension mounting hole 10mm (3/8") on the pdf lines up with the mounting hole on your tunnel. The lower hole on that pdf is the stock "Yamaha" suspension mounting hole and I am pretty sure its location is the same on all the MTX models regardless of year (2008 - 2013) and even though they have different suspensions pre and post 2010.
If the answer is yes, you can use just those two rivet holes to position the plate. You may have to drill new upper rivet holes to catch your inside reinforcing plate, but that's easy.
All that PDF does is position the AC front axle "relative" to the MTX front axle position AND track driver, and as far as I know, all the MTX's share the same front axle position AND that triangluar reinforcing plate on the outside of tunnel. So you only really need the bottom two rivets holes for alignment. Also, confirm the distance from the front suspension axle bolt hole center line to the drive axle ceterline is approximately 11.75"
Maybe take a picture of your front mount on the outside of the tunnel and the reinforcing plate on the inside of the tunnel so I can compare your 09 to my 11.
Measure three times...drill once....
OTM
..SNAKEBIT..
Expert
I think I measured 100 times
the outside plate is the same,
both upper rivets on 09 are lower and wider
then the pdf. So it looks like it would work.
With mounting higher in the tunnel up frt does the skid have enough travel to take weight off skis?
dont have OE skid out yet to compare just trying to get ducks in a row, what about dropping the rear alittle extra to help for my under tunnel exhaust????
the outside plate is the same,
both upper rivets on 09 are lower and wider
then the pdf. So it looks like it would work.
With mounting higher in the tunnel up frt does the skid have enough travel to take weight off skis?
dont have OE skid out yet to compare just trying to get ducks in a row, what about dropping the rear alittle extra to help for my under tunnel exhaust????
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
Snakebit:
Small changes up front translate into big changes in your drop bracket location, meaning if you lower the front mount say 1/8" (too me that's about the limit), the corresponding change in the rear drop bracket mount is probably an inch, which will help with your undertunnel. That's the good news.
Now the bad news: The higher you move your tunnel off the ground the more weight you add to the skis. Think of it at the extreme, if you lifted your tunnel into the vertical position, all the weight would be on the skis and none on the track.
My setup works well and doesn't put too much pressure on the skis....I would say no worse than stock, and with the slightly longer fox zero (11.75" c to c) I run in the front of the skid, I have lots of flexiblity to take pressure off the skis, but so far I haven't had to, so too me it's a non issue
On the question of travel, the AC has almost 7" of travel whereas my 11 MTX has about 5.75". Also, the higher mount for the AC skid in the tunnel is in part due the front suspension arm pivot location on the slide rails being about 1/2" higher (above the hyfax) than the MTX.
OTM
Small changes up front translate into big changes in your drop bracket location, meaning if you lower the front mount say 1/8" (too me that's about the limit), the corresponding change in the rear drop bracket mount is probably an inch, which will help with your undertunnel. That's the good news.
Now the bad news: The higher you move your tunnel off the ground the more weight you add to the skis. Think of it at the extreme, if you lifted your tunnel into the vertical position, all the weight would be on the skis and none on the track.
My setup works well and doesn't put too much pressure on the skis....I would say no worse than stock, and with the slightly longer fox zero (11.75" c to c) I run in the front of the skid, I have lots of flexiblity to take pressure off the skis, but so far I haven't had to, so too me it's a non issue
On the question of travel, the AC has almost 7" of travel whereas my 11 MTX has about 5.75". Also, the higher mount for the AC skid in the tunnel is in part due the front suspension arm pivot location on the slide rails being about 1/2" higher (above the hyfax) than the MTX.
OTM
Alatalo
TY 4 Stroke Master
Some requested measurements from the Lightweight Rear Suspension Kit:
Center shock upper mount to upper tube of center swingarm: 37.8 mm (1.488")
Rear shock front mount to lower tube of center swingarm: 93.3 mm (3.673")
Pull rod front mount to lower tube of center swingarm: 128.3 mm (5.051")
Rear shock rear mount to upper tube of rear swingarm: 52.1 mm (2.051")
Pull rod rear mount to upper tube of rear swingarm: 54.1 mm (2.130")
The angles are very difficult to measure with skid in sled without reference. All photos with sled standing on concrete floor and all measurements are c-c.
Center shock upper mount to upper tube of center swingarm: 37.8 mm (1.488")
Rear shock front mount to lower tube of center swingarm: 93.3 mm (3.673")
Pull rod front mount to lower tube of center swingarm: 128.3 mm (5.051")
Rear shock rear mount to upper tube of rear swingarm: 52.1 mm (2.051")
Pull rod rear mount to upper tube of rear swingarm: 54.1 mm (2.130")
The angles are very difficult to measure with skid in sled without reference. All photos with sled standing on concrete floor and all measurements are c-c.
Attachments
Alatalo
TY 4 Stroke Master
Also, it seems like Arctic Cat did not do the full homework regarding the 2013 skid mounting holes:
http://www.arcticchat.com/forum/cat-ser ... sleds.html
http://www.arcticchat.com/forum/cat-ser ... sleds.html
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
I'm trying not to say I told ya so.....
Remember last spring commenting that Cat was going to have fun if they thought they could just "fit" in the new Power Claw 2.6 by lowering mounts.
Its into the trackline big time and guess what happened: tip failure/hyfax wear and track stabbing....
At least they have a solution for the XF/Pro Cross...move the skid to the upper holes, but on the M's its going to be an ongoing problem. For all you guys running 2013 M's, PLEASE INTALL ANTI-STAB WHEELS
Here's my 2014 prediction for all Cat M sleds....shorter rails by about an inch!
OTM
BTW, thanks Alatalo for the dimensions!
Remember last spring commenting that Cat was going to have fun if they thought they could just "fit" in the new Power Claw 2.6 by lowering mounts.
Its into the trackline big time and guess what happened: tip failure/hyfax wear and track stabbing....
At least they have a solution for the XF/Pro Cross...move the skid to the upper holes, but on the M's its going to be an ongoing problem. For all you guys running 2013 M's, PLEASE INTALL ANTI-STAB WHEELS
Here's my 2014 prediction for all Cat M sleds....shorter rails by about an inch!
OTM
BTW, thanks Alatalo for the dimensions!
Nikolai
TY 4 Stroke God
In the process of buying the BDX rear skid arms I searched for hours online trying to find better pictures and more detailed information than the BDX website offered and came up empty handed. So before I installed anything today I weighed all the OEM and BDX parts individually both with bushings and without. I cleaned all the grease out of the OEM arms before hanging anything from the scale. I wish someone would have posted this information for me, so here's a complete breakdown of the BDX kit for anyone else interested in purchasing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rear arm lower linkage without bushings or cross shaft
OEM: 17 ounces
BDX: 10 ounces
Rear arm lower linkage with bushings and cross shaftt. The BDX linkage comes with a 6061 aluminum shaft and plastic bushings.
OEM: 25 ounces
BDX: 13 ounces
Total weight loss for the rear arm lower linkage: 12 ounces.
Rear swingarm
OEM without bushings: 3 lbs 14 ounces
BDX with bushings: 2 lbs 7 ounces
OEM with bushings: 4 lbs
Total weight loss for the rear arm: 1 lb. 9 ounces
Transfer linkage
OEM without bushings: 10 ounces
BDX with bushings: 7 ounces
OEM with bushings: 11 ounces
Total weight loss for transfer linkage: 4 ounces
I didn't feel like pressing the bushings out of the OEM arm so the weights are with all four bushings in each arm.
OEM: 6 lbs 8 ounces
BDX: 3 lbs 12 ounces
Total weight loss for front arm: 2 lbs 12 ounces
Adding the above numbers, here are the complete kit weights.
OEM: 12 lbs 12 ounces
BDX: 7 lbs 7 ounces
Total loss for the complete kit: 5 lbs 5 ounces. BDX claims 5 lbs so they are actually a little low.
Because the BDX kit uses non greasable plastic bushings I weighed the skid as I removed it fully greased before I dissembled anything, and after with the BDX parts.
Before: 47 lbs 5 ounces
After: 41 lbs 1 ounce
Total grease weight lost: 12 ounces.
If you want to included the grease in the weight loss which I guess is fair, then the total weight loss with the BDX kit is 6 pounds 4 ounces. Needless to say I'm pretty happy with that. With OEM 2012 153 rails(Ice Age are heavier), the oem Float shock, and Ice Age rear axle with composite wheels I could see a 35 lb skid being possible. My OFT axle with both wheels is 4 lbs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rear arm lower linkage without bushings or cross shaft
OEM: 17 ounces
BDX: 10 ounces
Rear arm lower linkage with bushings and cross shaftt. The BDX linkage comes with a 6061 aluminum shaft and plastic bushings.
OEM: 25 ounces
BDX: 13 ounces
Total weight loss for the rear arm lower linkage: 12 ounces.
Rear swingarm
OEM without bushings: 3 lbs 14 ounces
BDX with bushings: 2 lbs 7 ounces
OEM with bushings: 4 lbs
Total weight loss for the rear arm: 1 lb. 9 ounces
Transfer linkage
OEM without bushings: 10 ounces
BDX with bushings: 7 ounces
OEM with bushings: 11 ounces
Total weight loss for transfer linkage: 4 ounces
I didn't feel like pressing the bushings out of the OEM arm so the weights are with all four bushings in each arm.
OEM: 6 lbs 8 ounces
BDX: 3 lbs 12 ounces
Total weight loss for front arm: 2 lbs 12 ounces
Adding the above numbers, here are the complete kit weights.
OEM: 12 lbs 12 ounces
BDX: 7 lbs 7 ounces
Total loss for the complete kit: 5 lbs 5 ounces. BDX claims 5 lbs so they are actually a little low.
Because the BDX kit uses non greasable plastic bushings I weighed the skid as I removed it fully greased before I dissembled anything, and after with the BDX parts.
Before: 47 lbs 5 ounces
After: 41 lbs 1 ounce
Total grease weight lost: 12 ounces.
If you want to included the grease in the weight loss which I guess is fair, then the total weight loss with the BDX kit is 6 pounds 4 ounces. Needless to say I'm pretty happy with that. With OEM 2012 153 rails(Ice Age are heavier), the oem Float shock, and Ice Age rear axle with composite wheels I could see a 35 lb skid being possible. My OFT axle with both wheels is 4 lbs.
Alatalo
TY 4 Stroke Master
The BDX parts do look identical to the parts of the Yamaha Lightweight Rear Suspension Kit...
Little bit of a warning regarding the rear shock pull rod. I am not using the plastic bushings from BDX as I do not trust the clamping of a plastic bushing or a plastic bushing rotating on a threaded bolt. Instead, I manufactured proper, chromed steel collars that run inside a teflon bushing pressed into each end of the pull rod.
Little bit of a warning regarding the rear shock pull rod. I am not using the plastic bushings from BDX as I do not trust the clamping of a plastic bushing or a plastic bushing rotating on a threaded bolt. Instead, I manufactured proper, chromed steel collars that run inside a teflon bushing pressed into each end of the pull rod.
kinger
VIP Member
Awesome thread guys!
One question do you know what years and models this skid came in specifically a 141" all M sleds 08+?
One question do you know what years and models this skid came in specifically a 141" all M sleds 08+?
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
Kinger:
The 141's are on the cross fire / ProCross models, and not the M (pretty sure the M's are only 153 and 162). I first saw the 141 on the 2009 Crossfire Sno Pro and all years since.
OTM
The 141's are on the cross fire / ProCross models, and not the M (pretty sure the M's are only 153 and 162). I first saw the 141 on the 2009 Crossfire Sno Pro and all years since.
OTM
kinger
VIP Member
Great thank you OTM!!!
I will keep a eye out for one for a project I got going.
I will keep a eye out for one for a project I got going.
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
Its raining buckets today, so figured I do a small project on the AC skid that has been bugging me for a while.
Last summer I installed a Fox Zero Pro off a 2011 F8 (AC Part No: 1704-899) which was slightly longer (11.76") than a stock M (11.25") shock and had basically the same collapsed length.
You can find the details back on page 7 of the AC skid Thread or click here
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=109029&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90
With less compression and rebound damping it fixed one of my complaints of the stock shock being overly stiff and being slightly longer, I was hoping to increase the limiter strap and take a bit of ski pressure off the front end (only an extra 1/4" up front so not too much). This increases the angle of attack, but we are talking maybe 0.5 degrees so I don't really care.
First impressions were good, and the ride was excellent, but it was bottoming out alot when it took any sort of stutter bump hit. At first I thought I might be light on spring rate so I replace my 160lb spring with a 175lb. An improvement, but unfortunately I had to crank it up too much and basically lost the ride quality I originally had.
Another issue is the forward outside idler wheels at the bend in the rails. I've caught them a couple of times and beat them up a bit. I also think they prevent the track edge from flexing at a critical spot right where much of the sled weight is placed when manouvering, thus making it slightly harder to initiate a turn. You can see their placement in the pic below. Basically they are on the outside because of the lower shock shaft being in the way.
So this year, I've decided to try a Crossfire front shock,which is the longest so far at 12.5". It has roughly the same compression and rebound damping as the stock M shock but because it has a 1/2" longer compressed length, you need to move the shock mount backwards on the rails to accommodate the shock.
You can see in the pic below, the three shocks, the stock M (11.25") left , the F8 (11.75") middle, and the crossfire (12.5") right. The M8 & F8 have almost the same body length, and the Crossfire shock body is 0.375" longer
Rather than move it just enough to accomodate the longer compressed length, I decided to move it back 1.25" which will have the effect of softening the dampening quite a bit, and with the shock cross shaft now out of the way, I can mount the forward idler wheels inboard similar to the crossfire. Win Win!
Here the pick of the old mounting hole (the middle one under the black rail protector for the ice scratchers and the new one 1.25" further back on the rails. The two holes forward are to mount the idler.
Here's the pic of the completed assembly with the inboard wheels.
The only problem now is I have to wait another 5 months to test out this setup, but honestly, these skid plain work well. They are tough, lightweight, and easily tunable, which is probably why it hasn't changed much in about 10 years.
OTM
Last summer I installed a Fox Zero Pro off a 2011 F8 (AC Part No: 1704-899) which was slightly longer (11.76") than a stock M (11.25") shock and had basically the same collapsed length.
You can find the details back on page 7 of the AC skid Thread or click here
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=109029&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90
With less compression and rebound damping it fixed one of my complaints of the stock shock being overly stiff and being slightly longer, I was hoping to increase the limiter strap and take a bit of ski pressure off the front end (only an extra 1/4" up front so not too much). This increases the angle of attack, but we are talking maybe 0.5 degrees so I don't really care.
First impressions were good, and the ride was excellent, but it was bottoming out alot when it took any sort of stutter bump hit. At first I thought I might be light on spring rate so I replace my 160lb spring with a 175lb. An improvement, but unfortunately I had to crank it up too much and basically lost the ride quality I originally had.
Another issue is the forward outside idler wheels at the bend in the rails. I've caught them a couple of times and beat them up a bit. I also think they prevent the track edge from flexing at a critical spot right where much of the sled weight is placed when manouvering, thus making it slightly harder to initiate a turn. You can see their placement in the pic below. Basically they are on the outside because of the lower shock shaft being in the way.
So this year, I've decided to try a Crossfire front shock,which is the longest so far at 12.5". It has roughly the same compression and rebound damping as the stock M shock but because it has a 1/2" longer compressed length, you need to move the shock mount backwards on the rails to accommodate the shock.
You can see in the pic below, the three shocks, the stock M (11.25") left , the F8 (11.75") middle, and the crossfire (12.5") right. The M8 & F8 have almost the same body length, and the Crossfire shock body is 0.375" longer
Rather than move it just enough to accomodate the longer compressed length, I decided to move it back 1.25" which will have the effect of softening the dampening quite a bit, and with the shock cross shaft now out of the way, I can mount the forward idler wheels inboard similar to the crossfire. Win Win!
Here the pick of the old mounting hole (the middle one under the black rail protector for the ice scratchers and the new one 1.25" further back on the rails. The two holes forward are to mount the idler.
Here's the pic of the completed assembly with the inboard wheels.
The only problem now is I have to wait another 5 months to test out this setup, but honestly, these skid plain work well. They are tough, lightweight, and easily tunable, which is probably why it hasn't changed much in about 10 years.
OTM
le700
Expert
Hello. Last summer I got an m1000 skid (not sure which year it was, but it has a float..), which was hardly used, for my 06 apex mountain. But I now have an offer on a 2010 nytro mtx skid with two floats. What do you guys recommend? should I keep the ac skid, or buy the mtx skid?
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
I think either way you are going to need new mounting points up front and new drop brackets in the rear, so installation of either one will be a challenge.
MTX
Pro's: It will probably fit better
Con's: It weighs 68lbs
AC
Pro's: It weighs 45lbs (depending on wheels)
Con's: It is hard to fit with 7 tooth x 3" Pitch drivers (I'm talking Nytro tho).
Not sure what drivers you are running on your apex, but if its an 8 tooth x 3" Pitch, I would lean AC, and if its a 7, I would lean Yamaha, and that's strictly ease of installation.
Both ride well, in fact I would give the nod to the Yamaha. The Pro Mountain Air is very plush.
OTM
MTX
Pro's: It will probably fit better
Con's: It weighs 68lbs
AC
Pro's: It weighs 45lbs (depending on wheels)
Con's: It is hard to fit with 7 tooth x 3" Pitch drivers (I'm talking Nytro tho).
Not sure what drivers you are running on your apex, but if its an 8 tooth x 3" Pitch, I would lean AC, and if its a 7, I would lean Yamaha, and that's strictly ease of installation.
Both ride well, in fact I would give the nod to the Yamaha. The Pro Mountain Air is very plush.
OTM
le700
Expert
Thanks for the reply. The apex mountain is 7 tooth originally, if i remember correct.
