troubleshhoting starters collecting info

[yamamarc]

I hope cannondale could maybe make a pole to better troubleshoot why some starters go and some don't! I work in maintenance so troubleshooting to find a root cause is the best solution. I think if we all reply we can get to the bottom of this!!
Maybe start with the basics if anyone has variables to and please add them!

Both my wife's and my sled never had issues with kick backs. The only issue was on warm day when riding we would stop and her sled would be a little harder to start!

If the pole can have bullets like
-octane us 87 or 91
-riding temperatures when you had a kick back
-battery condition
-elavation
-did it happen from a cold start (what temp)
-Has sled always been hard to start
Please add your thoughts or a reason you think?
I'm not sure this will go anywhere but on the thread "how many starters going bad" reasons are all over the map.
If everyone with a viper or zr 7000 participates we may get answers!

 

[Dmarks]

I hope cannondale could maybe make a pole to better troubleshoot why some starters go and some don't! I work in maintenance so troubleshooting to find a root cause is the best solution. I think if we all reply we can get to the bottom of this!!
Maybe start with the basics if anyone has variables to and please add them!

Both my wife's and my sled never had issues with kick backs. The only issue was on warm day when riding we would stop and her sled would be a little harder to start!

If the pole can have bullets like
-octane us 87 or 91
-riding temperatures when you had a kick back
-battery condition
-elavation
-did it happen from a cold start (what temp)
-Has sled always been hard to start
Please add your thoughts or a reason you think?
I'm not sure this will go anywhere but on the thread "how many starters going bad" reasons are all over the map.
If everyone with a viper or zr 7000 participates we may get answers!

I think you should also add a question of weather your sled 2014 had new map installed at dealer and how many 2015 sleds that came from factory with new map have had this problem

 

[yamamarc]

I think you should also add a question of weather your sled 2014 had new map installed at dealer and how many 2015 sleds that came from factory with new map have had this problem

 

[stingray719]

Not all starters failed the same, some were natural failures, some broke teeth, some broke magnets so like a lot of tough issues you need to sort out which failures belong to which issue. The post cannondale put up a pic the metal in the teeth was crystalized and was going to break eventually. Did the kickback speed that process up....of course, but you have to look at the break. That was what we always did in racing to determine the failure to try to prevent it happening again.

Like the starting issues with the Honda Fury this probably has more than one problem that we are lumping together causing confusion. I suggest identifying the failure first (broke teeth, broke magnets, no click) and then trying to troubleshoot. In the end it may end up being a bad run of gears........

Just my opinion though

 

[cannondale27]

Sadly there is another one to add. Source that races said they actually broke starters right off engine. No other damage. Havent heard anyone else mention that one. My guess is in that case its a GOOD gear and a heck of a kickback. When NOS describes kickback he said it stops the starter and motor. That is not how I would ever describe a kickback. Obviously when a motor goes backwards it stops for a instant but all kickbacks I have ever seen are like the Doo engine reverse. It kinda coasts backwards. Nothing sudden. I am thinking maybe one cylinder doesnt fire and Hydrolocks with fuel? Rich startup and low end which we all agree is definitely there with reflash could contribute to that.

I hate to say it but I think this one is one Yamaha needs to solve. They need to start with another reflash even if it means reprograming for different areas of country. Just because Yellowknife needs less fuel at startup. I dont. Thats one issue. ECU should know for crying out loud. Otherwise we all just need to ride and hope it doesnt happen. I guess important thing is that everyone is informed. Will this issue affect sales? You bet it will.

 

[NOS-PRO]

Sadly there is another one to add. Source that races said they actually broke starters right off engine. No other damage. Havent heard anyone else mention that one. My guess is in that case its a GOOD gear and a heck of a kickback. When NOS describes kickback he said it stops the starter and motor. That is not how I would ever describe a kickback. Obviously when a motor goes backwards it stops for a instant but all kickbacks I have ever seen are like the Doo engine reverse. It kinda coasts backwards. Nothing sudden. I am thinking maybe one cylinder doesnt fire and Hydrolocks with fuel? Rich startup and low end which we all agree is definitely there with reflash could contribute to that.

I hate to say it but I think this one is one Yamaha needs to solve. They need to start with another reflash even if it means reprograming for different areas of country. Just because Yellowknife needs more fuel at startup. I dont. Thats one issue. ECU should know for crying out loud. Otherwise we all just need to ride and hope it doesnt happen. I guess important thing is that everyone is informed. Will this issue affect sales? You bet it will.

Shagman's sled broke the aluminum machined diameter off of the starter that slides into the engine. When that happened the gears didn't mesh and tore up the gears breaking off teeth and getting into the stator.

That is exactly how I describe a kick-back...(Sorry Cannondale)when the engine is turning over fine, then the abrupt stop of the starter and engine turning over (while still holding the key in the start position). This is caused by the leaning out of fuel on the start up and idle from the Yamaha Re-flash of course, cause both Shag and I were able to fix the problem with adding more fuel. (Also confirmed with EVO when they compared the 2014 program to the re-flashed 2015 program. )

Guess my definition of kick-back is when the engine tries to fire before it's supposed too, because of lack of fuel.

When the engine runs backwards, or runs on....I call that dieseling.

Mine and Shagman's kicked back in Munising at the TY ride this year. Temps in the morning were about 20's F° I would be guessing, but it did get upper 30's when Shagman's sled died. Raised the points on my fuel controller that morning and never had a problem since.

The day we dynoed at EVO (Sept 26, 2015) , a 2014 sled with the 2015 re-flash kicked back, stopped the starter and engine, then started cranking again. This was 80-85° in the dyno room. After the performance flash there hasn't been a problem.

I wish I had videos to show the difference .....

 

[ViperBill]

My friends ltx sheared off the shaft flush with the front bushing. Was moving it in the garage this last spring about 70f. Sled has never kicked back running reflash. After the flash mine kicked back at the dealer when i picked it up and about 4 times on the first ride. hot and cold I took it back and i think they flashed it again and replaced the spark plugs. It has run 2500mi flawless and Ive never had a starter problem.