low slung
TY 4 Stroke Master
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You nailed what drives the snowmobile consumer" I,ll have to buy new".No matter if its great(84 phazer)or a total flop(2005 Fusion)it will sell because sledders want the latest iron.Without this the sled industry would be like the sport quad market of the 1990s(same models ever year with BNG,from all brands).stevewithOCD said:
I read through the hillclimb thread on Snowest and it is same old same old. Yamaha's approach to racing is flawed and they do it over and over and over. Their approach to racing is to run 2-3 heavily modified sleds in the open class that cost tens upon thousands of dollars a piece. They test all kinds of improved parts and then.... never put them on their consumer sleds or offer them as GYTR parts. The amount of money they piss away on R&D in racing that never sees the light of day is simply astounding.
They took this same approach in sno-x and squandering their budget on a losing effort. After the first year they couldn't even make the final in a national. The Nytro was simply not competitive and they had plenty of different racers try to make it work. These same guys would leave, hop on another brand and do way better.
IMO, the latest XC marketing effort is more about drawing attention to Yamaha 4-strokes now that Cat came out with the 1100. Thing is, it does not appear that the 1100 is legal to be raced in USCC since it is a whopping 7cc's too big. That is too bad, I'd love to watch the 1100 put a hurting on the Nytro even though it makes less power. Maybe then Yamaha would actually update the Nytro.
If they were actually serious about racing they'd make an effort to win the Iron Dog. The Cat 1100 is legal for that race. There is one team of rookies racing the Iron Dog on Nytros. I wish them the best because they are taking on the toughest snowmachine race in the world at a disadvantage right off the bat. But, if Yamaha would actually put forth support and effort what better would demonstrate the superior QDR Yamaha likes to tout in its advertisements.
As far as a new front end..... so what? They've had improved front ends since '07 that actually made the Nytro handle like a Polaris IQ. The complaints many of us have had were addressed with these front ends. They've built them out of chromoly, out of aluminum, super expensive one off subframes constructed out of billet aluminum. What does it matter when they are not available to the consumer? The improved geometry doesn't make its way to the production sleds so what is the point? I should have taken pictures of my buddy's Nytro back in '08 that had the chromoly front end with heim mounted, forward swept a-arms, angled shocks, revised tie rod mounting locations and a 3" increase in wheelbase. I didn't take any photos out of respect for Yamaha. At that time it was the same old story that is on Snowest. These parts are being tested and could be offered as a GYTR part. Never happened. Yamaha would have had to produced 500 and maybe now it would just be 300 to make them legal for racing.
If Yamaha was actually serious about racing they would offer sleds on a discount program like the other three OEM's. They would try and get as many Yamahas out on the tracks as they could simply to increase their odds of getting on the podium. The more sleds you have out there the more people you have racing them, breaking them and figuring out what works and what doesn't. The problems are noted by the factory, fixes are issued and improvements are made to the next seasons sleds. Why the Yamaha snowmobile division refuses to go with this tried and true method is anyone's guess? They do it with their motorcycle and ATV racing. In my opinion it just shows that Yamaha is not interested in snowmobile racing nor do they take it seriously.
They took this same approach in sno-x and squandering their budget on a losing effort. After the first year they couldn't even make the final in a national. The Nytro was simply not competitive and they had plenty of different racers try to make it work. These same guys would leave, hop on another brand and do way better.
IMO, the latest XC marketing effort is more about drawing attention to Yamaha 4-strokes now that Cat came out with the 1100. Thing is, it does not appear that the 1100 is legal to be raced in USCC since it is a whopping 7cc's too big. That is too bad, I'd love to watch the 1100 put a hurting on the Nytro even though it makes less power. Maybe then Yamaha would actually update the Nytro.
If they were actually serious about racing they'd make an effort to win the Iron Dog. The Cat 1100 is legal for that race. There is one team of rookies racing the Iron Dog on Nytros. I wish them the best because they are taking on the toughest snowmachine race in the world at a disadvantage right off the bat. But, if Yamaha would actually put forth support and effort what better would demonstrate the superior QDR Yamaha likes to tout in its advertisements.
As far as a new front end..... so what? They've had improved front ends since '07 that actually made the Nytro handle like a Polaris IQ. The complaints many of us have had were addressed with these front ends. They've built them out of chromoly, out of aluminum, super expensive one off subframes constructed out of billet aluminum. What does it matter when they are not available to the consumer? The improved geometry doesn't make its way to the production sleds so what is the point? I should have taken pictures of my buddy's Nytro back in '08 that had the chromoly front end with heim mounted, forward swept a-arms, angled shocks, revised tie rod mounting locations and a 3" increase in wheelbase. I didn't take any photos out of respect for Yamaha. At that time it was the same old story that is on Snowest. These parts are being tested and could be offered as a GYTR part. Never happened. Yamaha would have had to produced 500 and maybe now it would just be 300 to make them legal for racing.
If Yamaha was actually serious about racing they would offer sleds on a discount program like the other three OEM's. They would try and get as many Yamahas out on the tracks as they could simply to increase their odds of getting on the podium. The more sleds you have out there the more people you have racing them, breaking them and figuring out what works and what doesn't. The problems are noted by the factory, fixes are issued and improvements are made to the next seasons sleds. Why the Yamaha snowmobile division refuses to go with this tried and true method is anyone's guess? They do it with their motorcycle and ATV racing. In my opinion it just shows that Yamaha is not interested in snowmobile racing nor do they take it seriously.
low slung
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I don,t know too much about the iron dog but yamaha won the first two years of the cains quest snowmobile race in labrador in 2007(VKpro)and 2008(FXnytro).They can win races but winning everything only goes so far.Ask arctic cat if all those gold medals will help bring back snocross for winter X 2012?
stevewithOCD
Yamaha, Make me Come Back
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That's the AKrider i like to hear! Stating Yamaha's issues without sounding hateful. AK, I believe you're more of an off trail rider. Is that correct?
ruffryder
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
ak, would you change your tune if the offered the front end as an accessory / update kit?
Thanks Steve. I know I ruffle some feathers on here once and a while being so critical but I just can't help it sometimes.
I like riding off trail the best, especially in the spring time. I don't even own a mountain sled as the snow here in South Central Alaska right next to the ocean contains a lot of moisture and sets up really well. My Nytro and now my IQR are set up for XC racing which takes place on both groomed and packed down snowmachine trails. Even when the course courses go over lakes, rivers, swamps, etc, the trail gets packed down from the sled traffic. Lower profile tracks are all you need. Even the Iron Dog racers just run studded 1.25 tracks.
ruffryder,
Yes, I defintely would think much more highly of Yamaha's racing efforts if they actually produced something useful for both the consumer and grassroots racers. Both the Polaris and Arctic Cat race programs are so much better than what Yamaha is doing that they cannot even be compared. I've been waiting and requesting that Yamaha offer a revised front end as a GYTR kit since '08. My impression so far? They don't care.
I like riding off trail the best, especially in the spring time. I don't even own a mountain sled as the snow here in South Central Alaska right next to the ocean contains a lot of moisture and sets up really well. My Nytro and now my IQR are set up for XC racing which takes place on both groomed and packed down snowmachine trails. Even when the course courses go over lakes, rivers, swamps, etc, the trail gets packed down from the sled traffic. Lower profile tracks are all you need. Even the Iron Dog racers just run studded 1.25 tracks.
ruffryder,
Yes, I defintely would think much more highly of Yamaha's racing efforts if they actually produced something useful for both the consumer and grassroots racers. Both the Polaris and Arctic Cat race programs are so much better than what Yamaha is doing that they cannot even be compared. I've been waiting and requesting that Yamaha offer a revised front end as a GYTR kit since '08. My impression so far? They don't care.
Blue Hornet
Pro
AKrider, you have hit the nail on the head and feel exactly the same as I do. Its very frustrating to see them put little effort into racing and R&D. I remember reading a column from Jesse Strege a while back and he sounded discusted with his ability to get a program working as the bean counters and suits werent listening. Years ago at haydays I approached a Japanese Yamaha employee and tried to calmly critisize their racing effort and explain why racing brings loyalty and pride to the brand. He kept saying next year, then went into the semi trailer and came out with a yamaha bandana to give to me. My buddies said he probably did that so I could wipe my tears away!!!
I think Jesse got a raw deal. I spoke to him on the phone a couple years ago and he was a super nice guy. I asked him how we could approach Yamaha to consider our club's XC race and hillclimb for contingency and at that time he wasn't sure what Yamaha was going to do for racing. Later that summer I heard that Yamaha announced they were getting out of all forms of snowmachine racing.
I never thought I'd feel the same way as the guys who posted criticisms in forums back in the late 90's about Yamaha's racing program or even in '06-'07 when they were first making a 4-stroke effort in sno-x with the prototype Nytro. All those guys brought up how Yamaha would make a big production about getting into racing then they'd drop out a few years later. This has been a continual cycle that shows there is no corporate emphasis on using racing to improve their sleds. It is unfortunate because the company obviously understands the benefits (motorcycles, sport ATV's).
In all fairness, I've seen how they use racing for R&D to expose weaknesses in their products. My rub is they identify the weakness and don't do enough to improve things on the consumer sleds. What is the point of racing then? Take a brand like Polaris or Cat and they actually use what they learn on the race course and incorporate it into their consumer sleds the next season. The first year Rush was a disaster in the rear suspension. One of the Iron Dog teams that raced a Rush was to the point where they wanted to install a traditional tunnel and use a standard type of skid out of an IQ consumer sled. Polaris said no and they ended up taking their Rush rear skids to Greatland Welding and having them pretty much completely rebuilt and strengthened. This went well beyond just adding some gussets to stock parts. After the race Polaris used their modifications for the basis on the much improved '11 Rush rear skids. Polaris wasn't too proud to admit their product could be improved.
Yamaha would really have something if they could combine their excellent engines with a corporate philosophy of improving their chassis. I can't help but think there must be some type of cultural difference going on? I believe the motorcycle and ATV divisions have a much bigger US influence into the products.
Low Slung,
The fact that the Cains Quest was won by a utility sled makes it difficult to market the wins for that event. That event is very unique and different from the Iron Dog. The Iron Dog is like the Baja 1000 only it takes place over seven days and goes 2000 miles. The sleds that are used are 600cc consumer sleds like F6's, Pro-R's, MXZ eTechs, and on occasion a Nytro. The sleds are 121's and the trail is very rough and is similar to what many trail riders would encounter except for the extremely low temperatures and remote location. It is an excellent event to show a sled's quality, durability and reliability (QDR).
The X-games sno-x was cancelled because sno-x has been in decline for the past 7 years and ESPN must feel that they can get more exposure for a lot less money by showing more snowboarding/skiing or some other judged event.
I never thought I'd feel the same way as the guys who posted criticisms in forums back in the late 90's about Yamaha's racing program or even in '06-'07 when they were first making a 4-stroke effort in sno-x with the prototype Nytro. All those guys brought up how Yamaha would make a big production about getting into racing then they'd drop out a few years later. This has been a continual cycle that shows there is no corporate emphasis on using racing to improve their sleds. It is unfortunate because the company obviously understands the benefits (motorcycles, sport ATV's).
In all fairness, I've seen how they use racing for R&D to expose weaknesses in their products. My rub is they identify the weakness and don't do enough to improve things on the consumer sleds. What is the point of racing then? Take a brand like Polaris or Cat and they actually use what they learn on the race course and incorporate it into their consumer sleds the next season. The first year Rush was a disaster in the rear suspension. One of the Iron Dog teams that raced a Rush was to the point where they wanted to install a traditional tunnel and use a standard type of skid out of an IQ consumer sled. Polaris said no and they ended up taking their Rush rear skids to Greatland Welding and having them pretty much completely rebuilt and strengthened. This went well beyond just adding some gussets to stock parts. After the race Polaris used their modifications for the basis on the much improved '11 Rush rear skids. Polaris wasn't too proud to admit their product could be improved.
Yamaha would really have something if they could combine their excellent engines with a corporate philosophy of improving their chassis. I can't help but think there must be some type of cultural difference going on? I believe the motorcycle and ATV divisions have a much bigger US influence into the products.
Low Slung,
The fact that the Cains Quest was won by a utility sled makes it difficult to market the wins for that event. That event is very unique and different from the Iron Dog. The Iron Dog is like the Baja 1000 only it takes place over seven days and goes 2000 miles. The sleds that are used are 600cc consumer sleds like F6's, Pro-R's, MXZ eTechs, and on occasion a Nytro. The sleds are 121's and the trail is very rough and is similar to what many trail riders would encounter except for the extremely low temperatures and remote location. It is an excellent event to show a sled's quality, durability and reliability (QDR).
The X-games sno-x was cancelled because sno-x has been in decline for the past 7 years and ESPN must feel that they can get more exposure for a lot less money by showing more snowboarding/skiing or some other judged event.
yamahabandit
Expert
AKrider your points are right on the mark. A lifetime ago in '97 when I ran the I-500, Arctic Cat phoned my home afterwards and get my feedback about engine and chassis setups. Imagine calling a grassroots "nobody" and documenting his setups. Of course what i had to offer was of no real value to them, it's just interesting they were so much into their product that every bit of info was captured to improve the product. I wish Yamaha had half their effort. Kudos to you for expressing your points like nyou did. To bad you you had to run another brand to be competitive. 
Just a wild idea but if Yamaha begins production of sleds here in the states i think alot will change. Their Minoqua WI. facility will be increased.
Thanks Yamahabandit. I would have been stoked to have been called and asked for feedback! That just shows how much Cat cares about performance and racing. They definitely have an excellent race program. I was pleased to see that last season Polaris featured our Mayor's Cup race on their website and listed how the racers did who were riding Polaris. That was really cool. I can see how these brands can build such a brand loyal following.
I really like the quality and dependability of Yamaha sleds. I wish they'd work harder to try and improve them.
FLYBYU,
I think that change would be to the benefit of both Yamaha and us consumers. I bet it would only help their sales because my Polaris buddies take pride in buying American and if a Yamaha was assembled in the USA by Americans that would make a big difference in their opinion of Yamaha. Chris actually mentioned the idea of production in the US on the Sled Talk Blog.
I really like the quality and dependability of Yamaha sleds. I wish they'd work harder to try and improve them.
FLYBYU,
I think that change would be to the benefit of both Yamaha and us consumers. I bet it would only help their sales because my Polaris buddies take pride in buying American and if a Yamaha was assembled in the USA by Americans that would make a big difference in their opinion of Yamaha. Chris actually mentioned the idea of production in the US on the Sled Talk Blog.
It's coming. Where are most their sales at? Not japan. Most everything else is made in North Carolina.
I read an article in OSM magazine that said the Nytro used in the cross country racing this season will use a 128" track....anyone hear this?
ruffryder
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
hopefully we will know in the next couple of weeks!!
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Where's the snow? 1st race in Grafton was postponed, 2nd race scheduled for new years weekend is going to be postponed as well?!
Maybe these pics will hold you guys over some?
Maybe these pics will hold you guys over some?
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