trlbrkr
Extreme
TECH TESTS HOW-TO PRODUCTS
WELCOME to the NEW AMSNOW.com! Check out our latest additions - CLICK HERE
Comparison Test: Four play!
Ski-Doo takes on Yamaha in the 130-horse 4-stroke crossover market
Mark Boncher
8/18/2008
4-STROKE FEVER - We tested all the new 2009 crossover and high-performance 130-horse 4-strokes from Ski-Doo and Yamaha last spring on the same day. We ran them through big bumps, powder, tight trails and more! Kort Duce photos
CARVE THE TURKEY - The easy carving and deep snow side-hilling ability of the XTX is impressive and predictable. Let's just hope snow/ice doesn't still build up under the tunnel.
NYTRO UPGRADES - There now are big snow removal slashes in the running boards.
The mechanical reverse lever still annoys us.
Adjustable couplers on the rear skid plus shorter front A-arms help handling.
Flying high on the FX Nytro XTX.
TEC IDEAS - These hand-warmers on the Renegade are now the best in the biz.
We like the grab bar, a necessity on a crossover sled.
There's also plenty of room for a turbo under the hood, but the secondary is hard to remove, and it's not super-easy to change the clutching.
FIRST TRACKS - We were able to go nearly anywhere off-trail with this Renegade, and the rear end felt incredibly light for a big 4-stroke.
The Renegade is a fun sled to toss around and catch some air.
What we've seen in the last 3 years is a proliferation in the 4-stroke market.
While some Ski-Doo 2-stroke guys tell you demand for 4-strokes is dwindling and you won't see much growth there, Yamaha's 4-stroke guys say they've grown to be the No. 2 OEM simply on 4-stroke sales. In 2009, both are investing heavily in 4-strokes.
Yamaha and Ski-Doo are giving buyers more of what they want with long-track versions of their 130-hp 4-strokers. Enter the Nytro XTX and MXZ Renegade X 1200.
Yamaha goes long
It was expected that Yamaha would come with a long-track Nytro for '09, but few would have guessed the new Nytro XTX to be a full 144-in. long rendition.
As we've said many times, WE LOVE THIS ENGINE! The 1049cc, 3-cylinder, liquid 4-stroke was dynoed by Tech Editor Olav Aaen to have 138.6 hp at 8,500 rpm. So why not let it churn a 144-in. RipSaw track around a 6-degree tipped up rail?
This engine actually seems more at home with this application than the short-track version.
The Mikuni-carbed FI engine gets good gas mileage - 15.3 mpg in our Real World test - is reliable, runs on 87 octane, after its first break-in oil change it only needs to be changed every 2,500 miles, and it has an easy electric start.
In addition to the torquey engine, XTX also gets all new Nytro front-end updates AND a bump-straddling, torque-harnessing, 1.25-in. lugged, 15-in.-wide track. The fully coupled dual shock CK 144 rear suspension has a three-setting pre-load cam-type adjuster on the torsion springs so you can easily set ride height and stiffness to your liking. Also, coupling adjustments can be made via a turn of the collar on the control rods in back. You'll also get a remote reservoir adjustable clicker rear shock with 12 compression clicks.
Taking a cue from its mountain sled testers and snocrossers, Yamaha's XTX has big snow evacuation holes in the boards and a steeper running-board angle of 11 degrees vs. the former Nytro's 9 degrees. Yamaha also made significant changes to the front end of all its Nytro-based sleds. To make the sled more stable, the castor angle was increased from a more up and down 22 degrees to a relaxed 25.8 degrees. The trail at the ski bottom was increased here from 21.4mm to 42.5mm and a revised spindle and shorter A-arms were used to accommodate the castor angle change.
Camber also was increased and ski stance narrowed. You get GYTR dual-
clicker front shocks too, with 12 clicks of compression damping adjustment and 20 clicks of rebound damping adjustment. Talking with Yamaha engineers, they have experimented with slightly more "toe-out" on their '09 sleds. This was something we also worked on with our 2008 demo sled.
Initial hits
The engine, of course.
Tipped up rail. We liked it in the old Polaris Switchbacks too, but "market research" told Polaris that everyone wanted a 136-incher. We're glad Yamaha brought it back! Why sacrifice a shorter track when you can get all the on-trail benefits of a 121 and still have big bump-bridging capability and off-trail dominance? We'll see how this plays out, but I have a feeling this 144-inch Nytro XTX is going to steal sales from a lot of those 136-inchers.
Front end. We like the changes here and believe about 30-40% of the Nytro's darting and unpredictability in the corners has been dialed out. It corners flatter and there isn't as much nervousness in the bumps as last year's short-track.
Rear end. We also like being able to change coupling settings because last year there were NOT adjustable blocks on the Nytros. However, the XTX's couplers aren't as easy to change as some on other sleds.
Top speed. In initial speed runs, this thing has better top end than even some of its short-track brethren. On long open sweeping trails it will not give up anything to an 800 and seems to pull harder than any 700 from the last 3 years.
Running boards. Snow removal is much better with the big "slash" holes and the boards are easy to get a grip on.
Initial pits
Cold. This is inherent to the Nytro body style, the XTX is a cold ride. Even with the slightly larger windshield for this year, the Nytro isn't warm. There needs to be more heat in the handgrips too. Wattage needs to be increased to the bars ASAP if you want to ride XTX in temps less than 25 F.
Handlebar action. Nytro-based sleds are difficult, especially for smaller riders, to leverage in hard aggressive turns. Because the bars move in a more vertical action, riders actually end up pulling them into their crotch while the other end of the bar is high and away from one's body. Don't ask us how Steve Taylor does it for Team Yamaha on the snocross track.
Front-end dive. We noticed this last year on our Nytro, and it could partially be due to engine braking and suspension set-up, but after trying many adjustments, we think it might also simply be due to the sled's geometry. We noticed that every time we hit a big bump head on, the front end would basically dive into the bump unless we were heavily on the gas. While looking at our Nytro XTX photos, we noticed the front end kicked up a lot more snow than any other machine. If you are a snocross fan, we saw this on the race sled as well. Every time Steve Taylor hit a bump before take-off there was an explosion of snow around the front shocks.
No mountain grab bar. If you are going to have a 144-in. crossover sled that is a big 4-stroke, you should have a grab bar in the middle of the handlebars.
No storage. Saddlebags are your only option here.
2009 Yamaha XTX
Engine: 1049cc liquid triple 4-stroke
HP: 138.6 (AmSnow tested)
Exhaust: 2-valves, 3-1 rear exhaust
Ski Stance: 41.3 in.
Front Susp.: Next generation FX-style independent, double wishbone
Rear Susp.: Dual Shock CK 144-inch
Track: 15x144x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 7.4 gal.
Price: $10,549 US
Ski-Doo is all new
The yellow camp couldn't deny that there are buyers who simply want a 4-stroke, so Ski-Doo gave consumers a new high-performance, 130-hp 4-stroke, the 1200 4-TEC.
This 1170.7cc, dual-overhead cam, inline, 3-cylinder engine is available in models across Ski-Doo's line, but for this comparison we were interested in the 4-TEC powered MXZ Renegade X 1200.
The 137-in. long Renegade is built for crossover performance. The 1.25-in. lugged track is 16 inches wide so there's a big footprint for off-trail flotation.
Since this Renegade has the 4-stroke engine, it comes in the new REV/XR body, which has a wider hood and slightly different aesthetics than the REV/XP chassis. Several changes were made to the original XP chassis in order to house the larger 4-stroke mill, which brings the Renegade's dry weight to a Ski-Doo estimated 521 lbs.
One of the first things you'll notice on this sled is the low engagement speed of 2,800 rpm. It's sneaky fast on the draw, and if you just mash the throttle out of the gate, it won't even feel like you've started moving until you're suddenly cruising down the trail.The big 4-stroke engine winds out at a low 7,750 rpm too.
Initial hits
Shock calibration. The smoothness of the X-package prototype 1200 shock calibration was perfect. While this is an X-sled, it cycled through its suspension with plush initial stroke and also great bottoming resistance. Extra oil in the piggyback shocks kept them from fading as we got into the bigger bumps and pushed hard through the ripple bumps.
While we don't suggest trying this at home, we watched snocross rider Willie Elam do half a dozen whip-jumps off a natural ramp in Colorado, and the big 4-stroke took the landings well. Even Elam commented on the set-up. The Kayaba HPG clicker take-apart aluminum front shocks are easy to adjust and so is the racing clicker on the rear arm. An HPG take-apart aluminum shock also sits in the front arm.
Smoothness. Clutch engagement, throttle pull, exhaust tone and just about everything on this sled, from a performance standpoint was smooth. Cornering was impressive, but not quite up to the level of the 2-stroke XPs. We believe the small bit of tippiness we felt was due to a slightly taller vehicle height than the XP sleds (3.5 in. taller) and the heavier engine. The best "smoothness" feature of the 1200 was how easy the mechanical reverse was to shift. This is possibly the fastest forward to reverse and vice-versa system out there.
Top end. For only 130 horses, this sled hung right with the 700, 800 and larger straight 4-stroke sleds on the top end. It was not nearly as fast as some sleds out of the hole, but top-end speed was great.
Tank size. With a 10.6-gal. tank and at a Ski-Doo estimated 18.3 mpg, this sled's range should be more than 190 miles. We love not filling tanks every 60 miles, wasting time gassing up.
Initial pits
Brakes. The brakes felt mushy to everyone that rode the Renegade. It's very easy on this sled to build up speed because of the small amount of engine noise and with its long legs, a rider could conceivably get in trouble quickly without a super braking system. The brake set-up on the 1200 Renegade was mediocre.
Engine Braking. Much of the engine braking was dialed out from the first to the second pre-production rides, but many of our riders still felt there was too much. Personally, I like a little engine braking as it helps set you up for the next corner. Too much and the front end dives, especially in loose snow, too little and you are constantly on the brake. Ski-Doo is close to the right amount of engine braking, but as of our last ride, still wasn't quite there.
Rubber Band Syndrome. At press time this was being corrected, but due to a low initial engagement speed and extremely smooth shift-out, it sometimes felt like this sled was on a rubber band. That made it difficult at times to drive aggressively in the low-midrange of the powerband.
No storage! Just about anyone would sacrifice 2-3 lbs. to have a little trunk.
Final thoughts
Ski-Doo's Renegade 1200 is best suited for longer days as it takes less effort to ride than the Yamaha XTX. Yamaha has come a long way in figuring out the Nytro's front-end and we like the 144-in. track. You've really got to drive any Nytro-based sled, as the harder you push it, the better it will handle. If Ski-Doo can get the clutching dialed in on the 1200, it will possibly be the best first-year 4-stroke to date.
Basically, if you want a tougher sounding sled, with better off-trail capability, more initial burst from the engine and a sportier look, then the Yamaha XTX is your sled. If you want a sled that can rip up the powder AND still be an extremely comfortable long-mileage machine, go for the Renegade 1200X.
2009 Ski-Doo Renegade X 1200 4-TEC
Engine: 1170.7cc Rotax liquid triple DOHC 4-stroke
HP: 130 (S.D. claimed)
Exhaust: Single-head pipe, baffle muffler
Ski Stance: 47 in.
Front Susp.: Dual A-arm with T-A alum. Kayaba HPG clicker shocks
Rear Susp.: SC-5 w/T-A alum. Kayaba HPG front-arm shock and T-A alum. Kayaba HPG racing clicker rear-arm shock
Track: 16x137x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 10.6 gal.
Price: $11,299 US
Odds & Ends
Yamaha: The "trail" of their ski is larger
This means that the distance between the contact area of the ski and imaginary contact point of the steering axis with the ground was increased. More trail tends to mean more stability, while less makes for more positive steering.
Ski-Doo: Good on gas
The 4-TEC 1200 engine runs best on regular 87-octane fuel. OEM estimates show it getting 18.3 mpg/22 kpg too!
DRY WEIGHT VS. WET WEIGHT, WE DO THE MATH -
The Ski-Doo MXZ X Renegade 1200 weighs 521 lbs. dry and has a 10.6-gal. fuel tank. The Yamaha Nytro XTX weighs 542 lbs. dry and has a 7.4-gal. tank. If a standard U.S. gallon of unleaded gas weighs about 6.5 lbs. at riding temps (gas is more dense in cold temps), simply computing the wet weights after filling sleds with gas, these two would be almost exactly the same weight (less than a pound difference). So, after adding oil, antifreeze, brake fluid, grease and all the other little nuances, these sleds should be within pounds of each other when totally wet. We'll do our own wet weight tests later this season and find out!
Mark Savage
Second opinion
Nytro vs. Renegade - This tale of two crossovers boils down to engine vs. handling. Nytro's engine is a monster with great low-end pop, which makes it a hoot. But Nytro's handling, while improved from last season, doesn't match the Renegade's. Yet, the Renegade's engine, while good mid- to top-end, lacks pop off-the-line. Which do you want, hole shot or handling? On a long ride, I'd choose handling!
Mark Savage, Editor
WELCOME to the NEW AMSNOW.com! Check out our latest additions - CLICK HERE
Comparison Test: Four play!
Ski-Doo takes on Yamaha in the 130-horse 4-stroke crossover market
Mark Boncher
8/18/2008
4-STROKE FEVER - We tested all the new 2009 crossover and high-performance 130-horse 4-strokes from Ski-Doo and Yamaha last spring on the same day. We ran them through big bumps, powder, tight trails and more! Kort Duce photos
CARVE THE TURKEY - The easy carving and deep snow side-hilling ability of the XTX is impressive and predictable. Let's just hope snow/ice doesn't still build up under the tunnel.
NYTRO UPGRADES - There now are big snow removal slashes in the running boards.
The mechanical reverse lever still annoys us.
Adjustable couplers on the rear skid plus shorter front A-arms help handling.
Flying high on the FX Nytro XTX.
TEC IDEAS - These hand-warmers on the Renegade are now the best in the biz.
We like the grab bar, a necessity on a crossover sled.
There's also plenty of room for a turbo under the hood, but the secondary is hard to remove, and it's not super-easy to change the clutching.
FIRST TRACKS - We were able to go nearly anywhere off-trail with this Renegade, and the rear end felt incredibly light for a big 4-stroke.
The Renegade is a fun sled to toss around and catch some air.
What we've seen in the last 3 years is a proliferation in the 4-stroke market.
While some Ski-Doo 2-stroke guys tell you demand for 4-strokes is dwindling and you won't see much growth there, Yamaha's 4-stroke guys say they've grown to be the No. 2 OEM simply on 4-stroke sales. In 2009, both are investing heavily in 4-strokes.
Yamaha and Ski-Doo are giving buyers more of what they want with long-track versions of their 130-hp 4-strokers. Enter the Nytro XTX and MXZ Renegade X 1200.
Yamaha goes long
It was expected that Yamaha would come with a long-track Nytro for '09, but few would have guessed the new Nytro XTX to be a full 144-in. long rendition.
As we've said many times, WE LOVE THIS ENGINE! The 1049cc, 3-cylinder, liquid 4-stroke was dynoed by Tech Editor Olav Aaen to have 138.6 hp at 8,500 rpm. So why not let it churn a 144-in. RipSaw track around a 6-degree tipped up rail?
This engine actually seems more at home with this application than the short-track version.
The Mikuni-carbed FI engine gets good gas mileage - 15.3 mpg in our Real World test - is reliable, runs on 87 octane, after its first break-in oil change it only needs to be changed every 2,500 miles, and it has an easy electric start.
In addition to the torquey engine, XTX also gets all new Nytro front-end updates AND a bump-straddling, torque-harnessing, 1.25-in. lugged, 15-in.-wide track. The fully coupled dual shock CK 144 rear suspension has a three-setting pre-load cam-type adjuster on the torsion springs so you can easily set ride height and stiffness to your liking. Also, coupling adjustments can be made via a turn of the collar on the control rods in back. You'll also get a remote reservoir adjustable clicker rear shock with 12 compression clicks.
Taking a cue from its mountain sled testers and snocrossers, Yamaha's XTX has big snow evacuation holes in the boards and a steeper running-board angle of 11 degrees vs. the former Nytro's 9 degrees. Yamaha also made significant changes to the front end of all its Nytro-based sleds. To make the sled more stable, the castor angle was increased from a more up and down 22 degrees to a relaxed 25.8 degrees. The trail at the ski bottom was increased here from 21.4mm to 42.5mm and a revised spindle and shorter A-arms were used to accommodate the castor angle change.
Camber also was increased and ski stance narrowed. You get GYTR dual-
clicker front shocks too, with 12 clicks of compression damping adjustment and 20 clicks of rebound damping adjustment. Talking with Yamaha engineers, they have experimented with slightly more "toe-out" on their '09 sleds. This was something we also worked on with our 2008 demo sled.
Initial hits
The engine, of course.
Tipped up rail. We liked it in the old Polaris Switchbacks too, but "market research" told Polaris that everyone wanted a 136-incher. We're glad Yamaha brought it back! Why sacrifice a shorter track when you can get all the on-trail benefits of a 121 and still have big bump-bridging capability and off-trail dominance? We'll see how this plays out, but I have a feeling this 144-inch Nytro XTX is going to steal sales from a lot of those 136-inchers.
Front end. We like the changes here and believe about 30-40% of the Nytro's darting and unpredictability in the corners has been dialed out. It corners flatter and there isn't as much nervousness in the bumps as last year's short-track.
Rear end. We also like being able to change coupling settings because last year there were NOT adjustable blocks on the Nytros. However, the XTX's couplers aren't as easy to change as some on other sleds.
Top speed. In initial speed runs, this thing has better top end than even some of its short-track brethren. On long open sweeping trails it will not give up anything to an 800 and seems to pull harder than any 700 from the last 3 years.
Running boards. Snow removal is much better with the big "slash" holes and the boards are easy to get a grip on.
Initial pits
Cold. This is inherent to the Nytro body style, the XTX is a cold ride. Even with the slightly larger windshield for this year, the Nytro isn't warm. There needs to be more heat in the handgrips too. Wattage needs to be increased to the bars ASAP if you want to ride XTX in temps less than 25 F.
Handlebar action. Nytro-based sleds are difficult, especially for smaller riders, to leverage in hard aggressive turns. Because the bars move in a more vertical action, riders actually end up pulling them into their crotch while the other end of the bar is high and away from one's body. Don't ask us how Steve Taylor does it for Team Yamaha on the snocross track.
Front-end dive. We noticed this last year on our Nytro, and it could partially be due to engine braking and suspension set-up, but after trying many adjustments, we think it might also simply be due to the sled's geometry. We noticed that every time we hit a big bump head on, the front end would basically dive into the bump unless we were heavily on the gas. While looking at our Nytro XTX photos, we noticed the front end kicked up a lot more snow than any other machine. If you are a snocross fan, we saw this on the race sled as well. Every time Steve Taylor hit a bump before take-off there was an explosion of snow around the front shocks.
No mountain grab bar. If you are going to have a 144-in. crossover sled that is a big 4-stroke, you should have a grab bar in the middle of the handlebars.
No storage. Saddlebags are your only option here.
2009 Yamaha XTX
Engine: 1049cc liquid triple 4-stroke
HP: 138.6 (AmSnow tested)
Exhaust: 2-valves, 3-1 rear exhaust
Ski Stance: 41.3 in.
Front Susp.: Next generation FX-style independent, double wishbone
Rear Susp.: Dual Shock CK 144-inch
Track: 15x144x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 7.4 gal.
Price: $10,549 US
Ski-Doo is all new
The yellow camp couldn't deny that there are buyers who simply want a 4-stroke, so Ski-Doo gave consumers a new high-performance, 130-hp 4-stroke, the 1200 4-TEC.
This 1170.7cc, dual-overhead cam, inline, 3-cylinder engine is available in models across Ski-Doo's line, but for this comparison we were interested in the 4-TEC powered MXZ Renegade X 1200.
The 137-in. long Renegade is built for crossover performance. The 1.25-in. lugged track is 16 inches wide so there's a big footprint for off-trail flotation.
Since this Renegade has the 4-stroke engine, it comes in the new REV/XR body, which has a wider hood and slightly different aesthetics than the REV/XP chassis. Several changes were made to the original XP chassis in order to house the larger 4-stroke mill, which brings the Renegade's dry weight to a Ski-Doo estimated 521 lbs.
One of the first things you'll notice on this sled is the low engagement speed of 2,800 rpm. It's sneaky fast on the draw, and if you just mash the throttle out of the gate, it won't even feel like you've started moving until you're suddenly cruising down the trail.The big 4-stroke engine winds out at a low 7,750 rpm too.
Initial hits
Shock calibration. The smoothness of the X-package prototype 1200 shock calibration was perfect. While this is an X-sled, it cycled through its suspension with plush initial stroke and also great bottoming resistance. Extra oil in the piggyback shocks kept them from fading as we got into the bigger bumps and pushed hard through the ripple bumps.
While we don't suggest trying this at home, we watched snocross rider Willie Elam do half a dozen whip-jumps off a natural ramp in Colorado, and the big 4-stroke took the landings well. Even Elam commented on the set-up. The Kayaba HPG clicker take-apart aluminum front shocks are easy to adjust and so is the racing clicker on the rear arm. An HPG take-apart aluminum shock also sits in the front arm.
Smoothness. Clutch engagement, throttle pull, exhaust tone and just about everything on this sled, from a performance standpoint was smooth. Cornering was impressive, but not quite up to the level of the 2-stroke XPs. We believe the small bit of tippiness we felt was due to a slightly taller vehicle height than the XP sleds (3.5 in. taller) and the heavier engine. The best "smoothness" feature of the 1200 was how easy the mechanical reverse was to shift. This is possibly the fastest forward to reverse and vice-versa system out there.
Top end. For only 130 horses, this sled hung right with the 700, 800 and larger straight 4-stroke sleds on the top end. It was not nearly as fast as some sleds out of the hole, but top-end speed was great.
Tank size. With a 10.6-gal. tank and at a Ski-Doo estimated 18.3 mpg, this sled's range should be more than 190 miles. We love not filling tanks every 60 miles, wasting time gassing up.
Initial pits
Brakes. The brakes felt mushy to everyone that rode the Renegade. It's very easy on this sled to build up speed because of the small amount of engine noise and with its long legs, a rider could conceivably get in trouble quickly without a super braking system. The brake set-up on the 1200 Renegade was mediocre.
Engine Braking. Much of the engine braking was dialed out from the first to the second pre-production rides, but many of our riders still felt there was too much. Personally, I like a little engine braking as it helps set you up for the next corner. Too much and the front end dives, especially in loose snow, too little and you are constantly on the brake. Ski-Doo is close to the right amount of engine braking, but as of our last ride, still wasn't quite there.
Rubber Band Syndrome. At press time this was being corrected, but due to a low initial engagement speed and extremely smooth shift-out, it sometimes felt like this sled was on a rubber band. That made it difficult at times to drive aggressively in the low-midrange of the powerband.
No storage! Just about anyone would sacrifice 2-3 lbs. to have a little trunk.
Final thoughts
Ski-Doo's Renegade 1200 is best suited for longer days as it takes less effort to ride than the Yamaha XTX. Yamaha has come a long way in figuring out the Nytro's front-end and we like the 144-in. track. You've really got to drive any Nytro-based sled, as the harder you push it, the better it will handle. If Ski-Doo can get the clutching dialed in on the 1200, it will possibly be the best first-year 4-stroke to date.
Basically, if you want a tougher sounding sled, with better off-trail capability, more initial burst from the engine and a sportier look, then the Yamaha XTX is your sled. If you want a sled that can rip up the powder AND still be an extremely comfortable long-mileage machine, go for the Renegade 1200X.
2009 Ski-Doo Renegade X 1200 4-TEC
Engine: 1170.7cc Rotax liquid triple DOHC 4-stroke
HP: 130 (S.D. claimed)
Exhaust: Single-head pipe, baffle muffler
Ski Stance: 47 in.
Front Susp.: Dual A-arm with T-A alum. Kayaba HPG clicker shocks
Rear Susp.: SC-5 w/T-A alum. Kayaba HPG front-arm shock and T-A alum. Kayaba HPG racing clicker rear-arm shock
Track: 16x137x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 10.6 gal.
Price: $11,299 US
Odds & Ends
Yamaha: The "trail" of their ski is larger
This means that the distance between the contact area of the ski and imaginary contact point of the steering axis with the ground was increased. More trail tends to mean more stability, while less makes for more positive steering.
Ski-Doo: Good on gas
The 4-TEC 1200 engine runs best on regular 87-octane fuel. OEM estimates show it getting 18.3 mpg/22 kpg too!
DRY WEIGHT VS. WET WEIGHT, WE DO THE MATH -
The Ski-Doo MXZ X Renegade 1200 weighs 521 lbs. dry and has a 10.6-gal. fuel tank. The Yamaha Nytro XTX weighs 542 lbs. dry and has a 7.4-gal. tank. If a standard U.S. gallon of unleaded gas weighs about 6.5 lbs. at riding temps (gas is more dense in cold temps), simply computing the wet weights after filling sleds with gas, these two would be almost exactly the same weight (less than a pound difference). So, after adding oil, antifreeze, brake fluid, grease and all the other little nuances, these sleds should be within pounds of each other when totally wet. We'll do our own wet weight tests later this season and find out!
Mark Savage
Second opinion
Nytro vs. Renegade - This tale of two crossovers boils down to engine vs. handling. Nytro's engine is a monster with great low-end pop, which makes it a hoot. But Nytro's handling, while improved from last season, doesn't match the Renegade's. Yet, the Renegade's engine, while good mid- to top-end, lacks pop off-the-line. Which do you want, hole shot or handling? On a long ride, I'd choose handling!
Mark Savage, Editor
AKrider
TY 4 Stroke God
I'd like to try one of the 4-stroke Doo's this winter. I have my reservations about the new engine's durability. Rotax's dependability seems to have gone downhill when they dropped the rotary valve.
Easy Rider
Pro
I rode one of the 4-strokes our local Doo dealer had back in the spring. Way different than the Nitro, smooth, low clutch engagement and didn't feel like it was pulling that hard, but it was decieving. It was staying within a sled length of a 800XP up to 80mph and even beat the 800 a couple times. I thought it actualy felt heavier than the Nitro, even though Doo says it's short track TNT is under 500 pounds. 
marsh14
Expert
I too felt it handled heavier than the xtx. I also thought that it pushed hard in the corners. It was throwing me all over the trail. The clutch engagement was harsh with a loud clunk and too much engine breaking. I rode the xtx and the rev back to back. Nytro definitely pulled harder.
jds1000
Expert
I own an Apex and a Nytro. I rode a 1200 X for about 50 miles last Feb and I liked it so much I ordered one. I thought it rode and handled better than both My Yamahas. I also liked how quiet it was because even though the Yamahas sound awesome at first that exhaust drone will drive you crazy on a long days ride. I was able to ride the Doo faster and easier than both My Yamahas and I just liked the overall feel of the 1200 X. I can't wait to do some side by side comparos this Winter, it should be very interesting.
marsh14
Expert
Did you also ride the xtx? It rides nothing like your nytro.
nor'easter
VIP Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2008
- Messages
- 156
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 948
- Location
- Pennsylvania
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- Nytro RTX SE
One thing not mentioned is the reliability factor between the two sleds. I understand that this cannot be written or evaluated at the time of this writing. Being an owner of a '98 Rotary valve Ski-Doo, I have always appreciated the fact that I have an entirely reliable snowmobile. Ten years later I decided to buy a '09 Nytro. The cost of snowmobiles today makes it increasingly important to be the consumer of very dependable sled. One that will be as carefree as possible.
AKrider said:
Rotax build a great motor. Its BRP that screws with it, that makes it unreliable.
jds1000
Expert
marsh14 said:
Yes I did ride the new XTX in March. It felt a little better than My Nytro but not the huge difference everybody keeps saying. It still felt like the Nytro but with better calibration. I still ordered the 1200 after riding the XTX. I guess our impressions about the 1200 differ. I thought the 1200 pulled harder than My Nytro and was closer to My Apex in performance. I think you rode a bad 1200 because the one I had for half a day was as smooth as silk with no clunking and had no more engine braking than either of My Yamahas.
dirkdiggler
Suspended
jds1000 said:
Reliability will continue to be an issue with doo. I hope you kept a yamaha for when you doo breaks down
yamadoo
Yamadoo is a snowmobile ' aholic'.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 3,645
- Reaction score
- 1,501
- Points
- 1,753
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 15 Viper STX DX red/white- GPS and KING AIR suspension 4kmiles
13 Apex XTX 45 anniversary RED/WHITE/BLACK 3K miles
10 Vector LTX Blue 9kmiles
11 Venture GT 4k miles
86 SnoScoot(2) for grand kids
This is GREAT. WE really have competition. It will lead to better and better snowmobiles..............YA!
My name, Yamadoo, reflects that I came from Doo. I am presently very satisfied with my APEX. I will look at Doo when the time comes to get a new ride, I hope Yamaha is on top..........but time will tell.
I think they will both be so good, it may not matter much. Remember Poo is coming again too. Not so sure about Cat........ just seems to be a record of great idea's not so well executed for a while, may be my perception. I grew up on CAT and wanted to work for them when young, I hope they surprise us all and push the competition as well.
Sleds are better every where you look
Yamadoo
My name, Yamadoo, reflects that I came from Doo. I am presently very satisfied with my APEX. I will look at Doo when the time comes to get a new ride, I hope Yamaha is on top..........but time will tell.
I think they will both be so good, it may not matter much. Remember Poo is coming again too. Not so sure about Cat........ just seems to be a record of great idea's not so well executed for a while, may be my perception. I grew up on CAT and wanted to work for them when young, I hope they surprise us all and push the competition as well.
Sleds are better every where you look
Yamadoo
IFlyEm
Expert
Bamboo said:
Isn't Rotax a BRP company?
cutlass7
Extreme
Yes, BRP owns Rotax.
Bradford
Expert
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2007
- Messages
- 396
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 873
- Location
- NB Canada
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- 06 RS Nytro
Skidoo has done very well holding on to the market lead that they gained with the REV. Yamaha has done very well by investing into the 4 stroke sector. One thing's for sure.... if Skidoo has a banner first year with their new 4 stroke, Yamaha will be forced to invest more into things like skis, suspension calibration and handling.
Now that we have two fantastic manufactures competing in the same market sector, things can only get better for us regardless of what we chose to ride!
Now that we have two fantastic manufactures competing in the same market sector, things can only get better for us regardless of what we chose to ride!
