Yamaha 4-strokes vs Doo DI E-techs

[Mighty]

The fuel economy was significantly better than the Apex too. It was annoying to put in something like 30% more gas in my 4-stroke than the 2-stroke after several hours of riding.
On the downside it didn't have near the throttle response or power of my Apex and most likely the engine won't have the durability. The throttle response was actually quite poor IMO,

Do you want a little better fuel economy or better throttle response?

Even if the E-TEC needed the top end rebuilt every 4000 miles (just to throw in a number), it would probably still have a lower cost of ownership over say 20,000 miles compared to an Apex. The Skidoo engines are very cheap to rebuild and not that expensive to replace entirely (if necessary). The Apex engine costs so much to rebuild, that it is better to replace the entire sled if the engine was to fail.

Show me where anyone has re-built the apex engine in 50,000 miles let alone 20,000

 

[ReX]

I agree with the exception that Rex is comparing the RTX package. Now I have an 06' great ride on the smooth but not so much in the rough (at least stock) For 07' they realized there mistake and put the C.K. in place of the Mono. I thought this is a good move as the Mono just wasn't built for rough trailability. Now it's been two going on three years of the C.K. being in the Apex RTX, which by name is "Rough Trail" with less than aceptable results. I'm not saying that the Apex should do as well as the Nytro or an X package. However I do think it's time that they (Yam) get it right or rid of it. The Apex RTX that is. If you can't make a rough trail suspension version of the Apex then it's doing more harm than good to keep it around. I think there would be a huge market at least in MI for a Apex with the rear susp. that of an old Rev. Me I'm going with the Nytro because I'd rather loose the H.P. and gain the susp. but many won't or don't want to. So off to the Yellow/Green/Red camp they go.

The thing with the REV-XP (and all the competition really) is with the multi-stage shock valving it not only rides well on relatively smooth trails, but it also handles big bumps without bottoming out. If it wasn't for all of the 2-stroke negatives, these really are nice trail sleds. Even Doo's non-rough trail sleds can handle rough trails at impressive speeds without bottoming or breaking.

I totally agree that Yamaha needs to either get rid of the Apex RTX or bring it up to competition standards. I don't consider myself a truly hard core ditch banging type of rider and I broke my RTX's skid at least 5 times this season. These were all major structural failures with broken parts. I do ride aggressively on rougher trails at times, but I don't go looking for huge air or anything like that. Not one single suspension part broke on any of the REV-XPs and the X was ridden much harder than my RTX, including lots of big jumps landing on hard surfaces (I never even took my RTX off my buddies jump in his yard either). As mentioned in my last post, one of the REV-XPs saw about 15,000 km and nothing structural broke on it. On top of that, I don't know if Doo has improved their engines recently or if the guys were just lucky, but not one REV-XP had a serious engine problem either (nor have any of the REVs I rode with in the past 3 years).

For certain, a rough trail extreme sled the Apex RTX is not. Unfortunately in stock form it also rides very poorly, so it can't be considered a competitive trail cruiser either.

As far as an Apex never being able to compete with other rough trail sleds, I don't agree. With the skid used in the FX-Nytro in the Apex (beefed up a little), the Apex RTX would probably be incredible. It is a little too heavy to make an ideal ditch banger, but it would be an awesome rough trail sled. The weight really doesn't hurt on the trails as far as I'm concerned (consider how well pro-trucks run compared to light weight dune buggies). Its when I'm trying to throw it around in the ditches (to/from gas stations, etc.) or off trail that I notice the weight (compared to the REV-XP). Carving in deep snow I don't have a problem either, its those technical challenges when trying to climb steep banks and get in and out of ditches that I sometimes struggle a little.

With lots of shock fine tuning and major reinforcement to both pivot arms, my Apex RTX is now a decent aggressive trail sled and I can ride on rough trails with the REV-XPs - but Yamaha needs to bring it up to at least this level in stock form, if they want to compete with Skidoo's offerings.

The rest of the Apex line does work very well for non-rough trail use, but even there Yamaha is on the weak side in the suspension department since the competition's non-rough trail sleds still can handle much bigger bumps without bottoming or breaking. Just look at how many higher mileage trail riders are breaking their Yamaha skids.

Getting back on topic, if the E-TEC and 4-TEC motors turn out to be solid, reliable performers, there really could be options available for us who insist on riding machines with clean, smooth, "4-stroke like" motors. Personally I wouldn't consider buying one for at least a year though. Maybe by then Yamaha will have started to implement multi-stage valving in at least their rough trail sleds (and replaced the skid in the Apex RTX) and further beefed up their groomed trail sleds a little more. If we're lucky we'll have some really good options to consider in the next few years (including sticking with the premium engine manufacturer for an all around rock solid sled).

 

[ReX]

[Show me where anyone has re-built the apex engine in 50,000 miles let alone 20,000

I didn't say anything about needing to rebuild the Apex at 20,000 miles.

I was considering the cheap cost of rebuilding a 2-stroke and fuel savings vs other maintenance on the Apex (y-pipes, donuts, suspension arms, slide rails, idler wheels, oil changes, etc.).

The 600 E-TEC is down on power so it isn't really a fair comparison, but if an 800 was available and if it turned out to be reliable (two big ifs), it could do a decent job competing with the Yamaha 4-stroke in the Apex.

Right now there isn't anything out there that can touch the engine in the Apex as far as I'm concerned (even though once in a blue moon one does need to be rebuilt/replaced before 20,000 miles).

 

[Mighty]

I didn't say anything about needing to rebuild the Apex at 20,000 miles.
I was considering the cheap cost of rebuilding a 2-stroke and fuel savings vs other maintenance on the Apex (y-pipes, donuts, suspension arms, slide rails, idler wheels, oil changes, etc.).

My LTX has 3,000 miles and has the original everything (you listed) including the drive belt. No sign of wear or damage in the suspension anywhere. Oil has been changed twice and I will be switching it over to amsoil here shortly.

The fact of the matter is if I had an etec with 3,000 miles I would be watching the odometer and listening to the clock tick waiting for it to explode. Don't kid yourself thinking re-builds are cheap. You are only talking about re-ringing it once down on power. The Rotaxs I had took out the cranks in all cases and in some put a connecting rod thru the crank case
Of the 4 I blew up not one had over 4,000 miles

 

[tkuss]

Here are my thoughts on the subject. The apex is no longer Yamahas current model, the nytro is. Everybody knows that if you want a yamaha and want to pound on the bumps buy a nytro. The new Nytro RTX SE SHOULD be able to take more of a pounding than any other manufactures sled, besides maybe the assault. The Apex is on its fourth year, and now filling the roll of there high speed trail cruiser. And my opinion is that there is no sled that is better at high speed trail crusing than the apex. The monoshock sucks up and eliminates the bumps better than any other sled out there and fits perfectly with apex. The Apex RTX is just being made for a few select people who do not like the Nytro chassis, but like I said before, the apex is for cruising and the nytro is for the bumps. I have not ridden and XP, but I know that making a sled 100 pounds lighter cannot take away from the performance or overall fun factor of a sled. But I have read of many people who have both put many of miles of ther XP with few problems, and I have read of alot of people who have had tons of problems. I still think Yamaha makes the most reliable sleds and doo makes the most unreliable. Yea we know the donuts, bushings and bearings all have to changed. But if we only have to do that every 5-7 thousand miles or so, that is a pretty big time interval. (I know some have had more problems with there sleds than this). Also different people have a different Idea of what maintance is. I am sure alot of people have put 10,000 or so miles on there sled and have done nothing but oil changes. Others who have more knowledge on how things work understand how things work and most likely will do more maintence more often. I know the more that I am on this site, the more I feel like I need to check and change this and that, which can either be an advantage or disadvantage.

 

[ReX]

Im new to sledding, but Ill share what my experience was. We got into snowmobiling in Jan, along with two other couples. On the trails dh and I had a 08 phazer MTX and 08 Nytro MTX, another couple had two 08 Doo XP Summit Everest 800r, and the other couple were running the 08 Polaris 600 iq, and a 08 700 dragon. This is what we witnessed.with the polaris the only problem we saw with those was the fuel float stuck open once and on a warm day they had to open the hood cause of heating up some, the dragon blew a belt as well, . The ski doos both had overheating problems, one was having issues with the cooling system, and the other one the clutch was getting hot, as well as one of them never ran right and went through 3 sets of plugs, as well as a belt each. Meanwhile, on our yamahas, we added fuel as needed, and every time we added fuel the others did as well. Dont know that we checked the economy on ay of them, just compared how many gallons of fuel we each added since we all added together. The yamahas took less than all of the above during wach fueling stop. End of season, they yamahas are going in for basic service and any needed updates. the Ski Doo is going in to find out why he had such problems with it all season. End of season Yamis had 800 miles on it, the doos were just hitting 500, polaris are unknown. Like I said, i dont know motors, and am new to sledding, but this is what I witnessed.

There is no question that the engine and drivetrain is the most important part of a sled. There is also no question that Yamaha's have the competition beat hands down in this area.

The big question as far as I'm concerned is if Skidoo is actually starting to catch up in this department with their E-TEC and 4-TEC.

On the other hand, Yamaha has had the worst suspensions for as long as I can remember, but they have been catching up quickly over the past 4 years. They still have a ways to go, but it really wouldn't take all that much for Yamaha to get their suspensions up to par (a lot easier than it is to design a decent engine).

 

[SledFreak]

The E-tec will never be as reliable... Bottom line is this, it is still a 2 stroke. The sno-x wanna be's can scream at the top of their lungs that 2 stroke will live for ever, but the 4 stroke will soon be as light or within 20-30lbs of an 2 stroke and you will not be able to tell the difference in performance. The low RPM torque that a 4 stroke delivers is un-matched at the best 2 stroke ever made to date. Plus they out last it by 10-1. Because, really, the only debate over the 2 stroke is the weight.

Everyone compares fuel milage and the only sled that beats me at the pumps is my buddies very slow 05 SDI 600. Plus, he puts in oil, so he loses. The e-tec will need oil as well. 1000km to a 4 litres of oil.
On another note, my sled is 20mph faster on GPS than my buddies 05 600SDI and gets to a 100 way quicker and that is with all the mods that I have done. Put it completely back to stock and we are the same at the pumps and he is using oil. Softer conditions may vary those outcomes, but am I going to sell my sled for a couple of bucks more in fuel.
Not a chance...

The e-tec will good on fuel and that's it and from what all the guys on DOO-TALK are saying is that the SDI 600 beats it. Now it can probably run if they gave it some fuel, but then it won't past emissions.

Soon, It will be a catch 22 for them, sooner, rather then later or their motors will become heavier just to put there performance back to where it should be. From what I hear, BRP is having a hard time with an 800 E-tec because of the amount of heat the 800 produces and the amount of fuel it needs and the injectors on the new e-tec, do not seem to able to support this. I heard they have an 800 E-tec, but, it is not performing the way they would like it to. Will they fix it, my guess is yes, but will it perform? Especially if Yamaha ever does release the big dog that they have under the sheets.

One last thing.... I have been with DOO for 25+ years before my Apex, and I can tell you this that I never seen a Manfacture down right lie when it comes to the way their sleds actually perform or handle the way they have and the way they handle their warranty is another issue. They don't really honour it, that's the problem and their lack of Customer Service sucks.

 

[yamahey]

Two Questions:

SledFreak, are you talking about Doo or Yammi lying and not honoring the warrantee?

Mighty,

Who's 08 GT did you end up buying?

 

[SledFreak]

I was referring to BRP. Yamaha service seems to be great so far and I had to deal with them twice so far with great results.

 

[Mighty]

Two Questions:

SledFreak, are you talking about Doo or Yammi lying and not honoring the warrantee?

Mighty,

Who's 08 GT did you end up buying?

Studdog from Drummond Island MI. Very nice guy Very, very nice sled

 

[Metallicat]

Is is true that the Doo ETEC and SDI engines do not route oil to the crank bearings and that is why they use so little oil compared to a standard 2 stroke, and is also the reason why they suffer so many catostrophic engine failures?

 

[OST]

Is is true that the Doo ETEC and SDI engines do not route oil to the crank bearings and that is why they use so little oil compared to a standard 2 stroke, and is also the reason why they suffer so many catostrophic engine failures?

I heard the same thing a few weeks ago.
Don't sound too reliable to me.

 

[Sasquatch]

Is is true that the Doo ETEC and SDI engines do not route oil to the crank bearings and that is why they use so little oil compared to a standard 2 stroke, and is also the reason why they suffer so many catostrophic engine failures?

No its not true. Oil is run to the crank its how they get oil to the cylinders. From the crank bearings the oil bleeds into the crankcase and up into the cylinders. The reason they use little oil is because thats all they inject.

The new E tec cools the computor with fuel to keep it from melting down. Every part of the Etec system is computor controled. From the ignition to the oil pump to the fuel.

http://corp.brp.com/NR/rdonlyres/3F...CB76F60B74/0/2007_01_31_ETEC_backgrounder.pdf

 

[cannondale27]

Outer crankbearings are sealed bearings with a special grease in them.SDI for sure are sealed.

 

[Dano]

Not sure how some people think a 4-stroke is more expensive to rebuild.

ECM BRP $1024 Yamaha Apex $524
Fuel Injector BRP $144 Yamaha Apex $71
Voltage Regulator BRP $250 Yamaha Apex $157
Piston BRP $253 Yamaha Apex $71
Drive Belt BRP $140 Yamaha Apex $51
just to name a few....

if parts are on "back order" chances are there is a reason for that. Only part I ever needed on my Yamie were the exhaust doughnuts, which were on back order for a short time, but didn’t leave me trailside. Doo gives out a warranty, but waiting for back order engine parts and trips to the dealer are a cost to the consumer with cost and lost time. Upcoming software updates to the etech won’t be done anywhere, but at the dealers. That being said, I would definitely give it a full year out before thinking of buying one myself if I were interested in it.
I think Doos 4-stroke is going to be the direction they will go. I'm hearing they are working on a Mach Z replacement in a 4-stroke version, which will be interesting to see.

Why would doo build 4-strokes if the etech really works? Doo realizes the demand for 4-strokes, but the demand is really reliability, not necessarily 4-strokes.

Just my .02c


Dan