Yamaha 4-strokes vs Doo DI E-techs

[420ATTAK]

we rode some backpack trips this year and rode with cats, and doos, the only sled better on gas than my attak was a 600 sdi but not by much and he still burned oil (not much but none the less he still burned oil) i had tons more power! so i got to thinking let him have SLIGHTLY better mpg's and let him burn his oil, and ill still pass him. but when we were packing our back packs i packed only close (a bit of whiskey for the nights in the cabbin) and everyone else was wondering where the were gonna put their oil. oh ya we rode with a ZR 900 (which was the only thing faster than the ATTAK) and he wasnt riding hard he had a tour buddie on his sled and he still ran out of gas! my light was just comming on (about 10 kms) another guy on a cat crossfire 7 has been through 2 motors this year, IMO anyone can ride what ever they want i want to ride my YAMAHA, and now after seeing Hondo's mileage i think i got a keeper! another friend of mine on a rev has been through 3 motors this year (he does ride hard) but he had a viper moutain and when he sold it it had over 11000miles on the motor.

 

[420ATTAK]

sorry guys i didnt mean to deflect the conversation but i really wanted to give my .02 about 2 stroks

 

[silversurfer]

sorry guys i didnt mean to deflect the conversation but i really wanted to give my .02 about 2 stroks

You are on topic; you're talking about Yamaha vs Doo reliability, which is basically what this boils down to.

I don't know how the OP would want to take their chance after reading this thread, but that is up to them. I am a big believer in "ride what you like"; at the end of the day, it's still just a toy.

 

[Superman]

This E-tech thing if introduced in the 1990's probably would have slowed or even stalled the introduction of 4 strokes. I mean if the industry had cleaned up 2 strokes and got the kind of milage that doo is getting out of the E-tech in the 90's the incentive of 4 strokes might not have been viewed as a great difference.......But having owned 4 strokes since 2003 I would buy the doo 1200 or any manufacturers 4 stroke before I would consider a E-tech or any other 2 stroke. This is how my and alot of peoples perception of 2 stroke snowmobiles has changed. 2 Strokes no matter how you slice it and dice it just aren't going to feel the same or hold up as long. E-tech sounds like the most efficent 2 stroke engine ever made. But its a day late and a dollar short when it comes to spending my money.

Baby!

 

[Deadman]

Etec will prove itself in 3 full years, so it'll be awhile before the truth of its reliability is known.

 

[indica44]

My local ski doo dealer let me take a new eteck for the weekend put five hundred miles on it. It ran good but no apex I will tell you that. I went to a yamaha dealer to try a nytro to see what the 4 stroke 130 horse engine would be like so i could make a comparisom to the new 4 tec ski doo has because I was interested in maybe getting the new 4 tec doo. On the way back from the lake we went too the dealer said do you want to try the apex I said sure why not I WAS HOOKED just like that went right back to the yammi dealer an sringchecked a new 09 apex rtx just like that. On the way back to the dealers the nytro was in my way I just wanted to go faster an faster I could not believe how it cornered. I never have felt so at home on a sled in my life as that apex I tried

 

[ReX]

I tried a 600 E-TEC last month also.

For a 2-stroke I was very impressed.

The sled was also very light, very quiet, didn't stink, didn't smoke, didn't vibrate much, etc.

The fuel economy was significantly better than the Apex too. It was annoying to put in something like 30% more gas in my 4-stroke than the 2-stroke after several hours of riding.

On the downside it didn't have near the throttle response or power of my Apex and most likely the engine won't have the durability. The throttle response was actually quite poor IMO, but this is one of those things us trail riders can get used to eventually.

When you consider that it met pretty much all of the requirements really pushing me to 4-strokes (no smoke, no stink, smooth running) and the fact that it would likely have a similar life cycle cost; it is definitely competing with Yamaha's 4-strokes.

One of the big advantages for the E-TEC over the Apex is the fact that the MXZ's suspension not only rides better and handles the bumps much better (compared to a stock Apex RTX), but the suspension is also much more durable (again compared to a stock Apex - any Apex).

Even if the E-TEC needed the top end rebuilt every 4000 miles (just to throw in a number), it would probably still have a lower cost of ownership over say 20,000 miles compared to an Apex. The Skidoo engines are very cheap to rebuild and not that expensive to replace entirely (if necessary). The Apex engine costs so much to rebuild, that it is better to replace the entire sled if the engine was to fail.

If Skidoo comes out with a higher performance ~800 E-TEC, I'll definitely be taking a close look.

The new 1200 4-TEC also looks like it might be decent. I haven't had a chance to try one yet and know it would be extremely difficult to match the performance of the Apex, but maybe it will also be worth considering in a year or two (especially with Doo's rock solid suspensions).

For now I'll be sticking with my 07 RTX, but I really don't know what will be my next sled.

 

[Gone Blue]

I was talking with the Doo rep at the spring snow show here last month about the E tek. He told me that the engine is a 600 SDI with a bolt on direct injection system. It should be one of the best 2 strokes ever made for a sled. Just don't expect it last as long as a 4 stroke. It wont be any more durable than the current 600 SDI. G.B.

 

[apltx08]

If Skidoo comes out with a higher performance ~800 E-TEC, I'll definitely be taking a close look.

The new 1200 4-TEC also looks like it might be decent. I haven't had a chance to try one yet and know it would be extremely difficult to match the performance of the Apex, but maybe it will also be worth considering in a year or two (especially with Doo's rock solid suspensions).

I'm in the same situation as you, but you can't compare a APEX/lake runner to a XP ditch banger, I'm no expert but have ridden enough miles to give my input.

APEX is a all day long ride sled cruiser specialy with the MONO suspension they were design for GROOMED trail riding in the other case "XP" is a throw around and jumping jack sled that was meant to ditchbang that guys after a couple of hundred kms can't ride anymore 'cause of sore backs and tired of getting bounce around, like some of the "XP" guys I ran with this winter that couldn't get off my APEX!!!

But like you said it'll be very interesting to see if they come up with a 800R E-TEC, again depending what type of rider you are I still don't think the XP is a cruising sled! centainly not in the "X" package...and can't be compared to a APEX

my .02

 

[NW Sledgirl]

Im new to sledding, but Ill share what my experience was. We got into snowmobiling in Jan, along with two other couples. On the trails dh and I had a 08 phazer MTX and 08 Nytro MTX, another couple had two 08 Doo XP Summit Everest 800r, and the other couple were running the 08 Polaris 600 iq, and a 08 700 dragon. This is what we witnessed.with the polaris the only problem we saw with those was the fuel float stuck open once and on a warm day they had to open the hood cause of heating up some, the dragon blew a belt as well, . The ski doos both had overheating problems, one was having issues with the cooling system, and the other one the clutch was getting hot, as well as one of them never ran right and went through 3 sets of plugs, as well as a belt each. Meanwhile, on our yamahas, we added fuel as needed, and every time we added fuel the others did as well. Dont know that we checked the economy on ay of them, just compared how many gallons of fuel we each added since we all added together. The yamahas took less than all of the above during wach fueling stop. End of season, they yamahas are going in for basic service and any needed updates. the Ski Doo is going in to find out why he had such problems with it all season. End of season Yamis had 800 miles on it, the doos were just hitting 500, polaris are unknown. Like I said, i dont know motors, and am new to sledding, but this is what I witnessed.

 

[SumpBuster]

My old FIII got nearly 16 mpg on some nice easy cruises. So getting 20 on a super tech new 2 stroke cruising seems reasonable. However, when running full tilt, what will it really get? And why aren't car makers putting high tech lighter 2 stroke e techs into cars? Seems the new diesels are the future of internal combustion as they can burn most anything. Weight is the issue here, but they are coming down. There's also a new 6 stroke engine being developed.
My opinion is the 4 strokes are efficient by nature, meaning mechanically. The 2 strokes need sophisticated electronics and injection to be more efficient. My carbed RX1 got 15 mpg and my injected Apex gets 15 on a good day. And they are about as fast on top end.

 

[LJ 452]

If Skidoo comes out with a higher performance ~800 E-TEC, I'll definitely be taking a close look.

The new 1200 4-TEC also looks like it might be decent. I haven't had a chance to try one yet and know it would be extremely difficult to match the performance of the Apex, but maybe it will also be worth considering in a year or two (especially with Doo's rock solid suspensions).

I'm in the same situation as you, but you can't compare a APEX/lake runner to a XP ditch banger, I'm no expert but have ridden enough miles to give my input.

APEX is a all day long ride sled cruiser specialy with the MONO suspension they were design for GROOMED trail riding in the other case "XP" is a throw around and jumping jack sled that was meant to ditchbang that guys after a couple of hundred kms can't ride anymore 'cause of sore backs and tired of getting bounce around, like some of the "XP" guys I ran with this winter that couldn't get off my APEX!!!

But like you said it'll be very interesting to see if they come up with a 800R E-TEC, again depending what type of rider you are I still don't think the XP is a cruising sled! centainly not in the "X" package...and can't be compared to a APEX

my .02

I agree with the exception that Rex is comparing the RTX package. Now I have an 06' great ride on the smooth but not so much in the rough (at least stock) For 07' they realized there mistake and put the C.K. in place of the Mono. I thought this is a good move as the Mono just wasn't built for rough trailability. Now it's been two going on three years of the C.K. being in the Apex RTX, which by name is "Rough Trail" with less than aceptable results. I'm not saying that the Apex should do as well as the Nytro or an X package. However I do think it's time that they (Yam) get it right or rid of it. The Apex RTX that is. If you can't make a rough trail suspension version of the Apex then it's doing more harm than good to keep it around. I think there would be a huge market at least in MI for a Apex with the rear susp. that of an old Rev. Me I'm going with the Nytro because I'd rather loose the H.P. and gain the susp. but many won't or don't want to. So off to the Yellow/Green/Red camp they go.

 

[SumpBuster]

My 04 SDI was BONE STOCK, and in the 5,200 miles I owned it, it blew-up 3 times. I finally parted it out and bought a 500 SS. That went 5,000 miles, and then blew up. Then in the next 300 miles it blew up 3 more time. Bought a XTX, end of story.
The Etec is the same bottom end of a SDI, and they now leaned it out even more and are giving it way less oil. I think it will be a good 2,000 mile engine, but after that ANYTHING could happen!

This stuff sticks in my craw, as I had 6600 miles on a 1973 Skiroule RTX 447 with the original Sachs motor...and to hear of any 2 strokes failing this often and early in this day and age is ludicrous. From Doo or anybody. Light weight shouldn't mean blown engines.
Go heavy Yammy 4 tokers...lol

 

[ReX]

I'm in the same situation as you, but you can't compare a APEX/lake runner to a XP ditch banger, I'm no expert but have ridden enough miles to give my input.

APEX is a all day long ride sled cruiser specialy with the MONO suspension they were design for GROOMED trail riding in the other case "XP" is a throw around and jumping jack sled that was meant to ditchbang that guys after a couple of hundred kms can't ride anymore 'cause of sore backs and tired of getting bounce around, like some of the "XP" guys I ran with this winter that couldn't get off my APEX!!!

But like you said it'll be very interesting to see if they come up with a 800R E-TEC, again depending what type of rider you are I still don't think the XP is a cruising sled! centainly not in the "X" package...and can't be compared to a APEX

my .02

A good 80% of my riding this past winter (almost 8000 km) was with a REV-XP MXZ 800R X-package. We rode several 700+ km days, saddle bag trips and swapped back and forth many times (I enjoyed riding the XP-X). Other than the seat being a little firm at first (it softened up over the miles), not once did anyone consider the XP-X a non-high mileage trail sled.

The XP-X's suspension and ride was always superior to the Apex. It didn't matter if the trails were rough or if they were smooth. The XP's riding position is excellent too. On top of that, the guy on the XP-X also owns an 06 Apex ER. His Apex got less than 1000 km on it this winter, while the XP-X ended up with 7000 km. Once he got the XP-X, the Apex only saw a few rides - even when he got it back after something like 8 weeks waiting for back ordered exhaust and skid parts (there was still a good 6 weeks of riding left when he got it back).

To us, we found the REV-XP X made an excellent all around sled. It is comfortable, very fast on tight trails (once the limiter was tightened one hole), and on top of that it was a total blast off-trail and ditch banging. I definitely would not call it a dedicated ditch banging sled in any way.

The only real complaints with the REV-XP were the expensive premium fuel (or mid if you could find it), the expense of 2-stroke oil, the hassle of finding or carrying oil and constantly filling the oil, the smell, the smoke, the vibration , etc. Basically all of the "normal" 2-stroke complaints.

My buddy did soften the suspension a little on the XP-X using the clickers, but even as shipped it was excellent. With both high and low speed clickers on the shocks, there is so much adjust-ability that I'm sure it would satisfy everyone from slightly aggressive trail riders all the way to the most hard core ditch banger. After riding with you, I'm almost certain you'd really enjoy riding an XP-X if it wasn't for all of the 2-stroke negatives.

I also rode with two other REV-XP's (non-X package) this season and again, these guys put on tons of high mileage days and all of the REV-XP guys were boasting how they could ride longer days on their lightweight REV-XP vs my heavy Apex (I don't necessarily agree, but the XP definitely isn't hard to ride all day long that is for certain). One of them put about 15,000 km on his REV-XP this season alone - almost double what I put on my Apex and with far fewer break downs too.

BTW, guess what sled every single person I regularly ride with will be on next season? They will all be on REV-XPs; some X-package, some basic MXZ, but all on REV-XPs. I am the only one left on a Yamaha out of the group and we are all high mileage riders. They have all sold their Apex, except for the one with the XP-X (and his is up for sale - I think he'll take $5000 Cdn for his 06 Apex ER with a 3 year remaining warranty - he's been asking $5900 for ages).

As far as I'm concerned, the one thing that none of the competition has been able to touch so far is the Yamaha snowmobile's engine. It is the smooth, clean, powerful 4-stroke that makes the Yamaha snowmobiles desirable. Don't get me wrong, I don't think everything else is bad on the Apex; I just consider everything else to be very impressive on the XP and I can't knock my riding buddies for going back to Skidoo.

 

[apltx08]

As far as I'm concerned, the one thing that none of the competition has been able to touch so far is the Yamaha snowmobile's engine. It is the smooth, clean, powerful 4-stroke that makes the Yamaha snowmobiles desirable. Don't get me wrong, I don't think everything else is bad on the Apex; I just consider everything else to be very impressive on the XP and I can't knock my riding buddies for going back to Skidoo.

All what I'm trying to say is, its not fair to compare an APEX that weighs near 560lbs(dry) to a XP that come in a little over 425 ish(DRY) pounds, an APEX will never be a XP no matter how you set it up and I think you have to get the SLED that meets your expectations/needs and riding style, APEX are for groomed trails to stutter bumps no matter the FLAVOR and the XP, yes I do agree is more of all around sled but just doesn't cruise as well as a APEX...don't get me wrong if "DOO" come out with a 800R E-TEC it just might get under my SKIN!!! I'm due to trade in 2 years :exc: it'll be a tough choice to make and its what makes snowmobiling so much FUN!!!