Grimm
TY 4 Stroke God
Picksoo, what's the size of the upper bolts (that attach to the tunnel)? I have the size for the lower mounts already, just not the upper.
Do you know what grade the supplied bolts are?
Do you know what grade the supplied bolts are?
Picksoo
Veteran
The bolts that sheared were not the tunnel bolts but the upoper and lower bolts on the rails. I will get you the size of the tunnel bolts tomorrow.
06vectorgt
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Re: ZX2 broken bolt life cycle
Wouldn't it be nice if ADB jumped in here some where with a solution other than inspect & re-torque.
I no longer trust this skid and I am afraid to go to far fearing a flat bed towing. How about it ADB!
Picksoo said:
Wouldn't it be nice if ADB jumped in here some where with a solution other than inspect & re-torque.
I no longer trust this skid and I am afraid to go to far fearing a flat bed towing. How about it ADB!
Shane
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Gentlemen,
Although I have not yet heard back from Jeff or Dennis, I can tell you it is not a hardware issue at all. It simply a loctite/proper torque issue. I noticed the bolt sheered on my sled while on an 800 mile ride in Canada last weekend. I have no idea how long it was broken for, but I can tell you I rode over some pretty nasty stuff for nearly 50 miles after discovering the problem and I was not babying it all. When I removed the bolt on the other side it showed no signs of wear whatsoever and neither did the suspension itself. If you have not lost this bolt yet, i would simply recommend that you remove both bolts, clean the threads on a bench grinder with wire wheel, clean the threads on the cross shaft and re-install at proper torque.
This weekend I ended up riding with a gentleman who recently sold his injection molding business. I asked him about the X2 and its strength and durability. Although he is not familiar with the particular laminate schedules and composites used but he did say that plastics are equally strong or stronger than steel.
I do agree that Boivin should address this issue on here as a course of good business. The quality and strength of this suspension is yet to be realized. It breaks all conventional wisdom in sled set up and ride quality. It will just take time to find what combination of settings works best for each individual application.
Shane
Although I have not yet heard back from Jeff or Dennis, I can tell you it is not a hardware issue at all. It simply a loctite/proper torque issue. I noticed the bolt sheered on my sled while on an 800 mile ride in Canada last weekend. I have no idea how long it was broken for, but I can tell you I rode over some pretty nasty stuff for nearly 50 miles after discovering the problem and I was not babying it all. When I removed the bolt on the other side it showed no signs of wear whatsoever and neither did the suspension itself. If you have not lost this bolt yet, i would simply recommend that you remove both bolts, clean the threads on a bench grinder with wire wheel, clean the threads on the cross shaft and re-install at proper torque.
This weekend I ended up riding with a gentleman who recently sold his injection molding business. I asked him about the X2 and its strength and durability. Although he is not familiar with the particular laminate schedules and composites used but he did say that plastics are equally strong or stronger than steel.
I do agree that Boivin should address this issue on here as a course of good business. The quality and strength of this suspension is yet to be realized. It breaks all conventional wisdom in sled set up and ride quality. It will just take time to find what combination of settings works best for each individual application.
Shane
Picksoo
Veteran
ZX2 broken bolts contacted AD Boivin
I had a good 1/2 hr discussion this morning with AD Boivin technical staff and I am satisfied with his explanations. His recommendation is to tourque and retourque after 500 miles. Use red locktite. I have re-assembled the skid and will test it out.
The loosening of the bolts on the right side is caused by the action of the swing arm. The bolts on the right will have a tendancy to loosen while the ones on the left side will have a tendancy to tighten. Locktite and torquing sholud resolve this issue. I have also installe washers on both shafts.
A bulitin will be posted stating the all bolts must be torqued after the first 500 miles. This was omitted in the instruction supplied with the unit. I did not retourqe the bolts.
When I had the bolts replaced the first time. they were not grade 10 bolts. This may explain why the bolt at the revolver broke. AD Boivin said that this was the first time he heard of the revolver bolt breaking.
I had a good 1/2 hr discussion this morning with AD Boivin technical staff and I am satisfied with his explanations. His recommendation is to tourque and retourque after 500 miles. Use red locktite. I have re-assembled the skid and will test it out.
The loosening of the bolts on the right side is caused by the action of the swing arm. The bolts on the right will have a tendancy to loosen while the ones on the left side will have a tendancy to tighten. Locktite and torquing sholud resolve this issue. I have also installe washers on both shafts.
A bulitin will be posted stating the all bolts must be torqued after the first 500 miles. This was omitted in the instruction supplied with the unit. I did not retourqe the bolts.
When I had the bolts replaced the first time. they were not grade 10 bolts. This may explain why the bolt at the revolver broke. AD Boivin said that this was the first time he heard of the revolver bolt breaking.
I haven’t had a bolt shear off yet, but I have found several of them back off and come loose. All four bolts where the suspension mounts to the tunnel, the lower front arm bolts, and the two bolts that go thru the revolver plate were both backed out almost an inch. Fortunately I caught that taking it off the trailer yesterday morning. That would have ended in a trailside breakage for sure. I am also having the issue of the rubber pins mushrooming out in the revolver assembly. Since I have never taken mine apart, I want to take pictures for Jeff first. I’ll be interested in what he has to say. For now all I can suggest is remove every bolt I the skid, clean all male and female threads, and apply red loktite. Even if this was supposed to be done from the factory, many of the bolts have gotten missed.
I forget which thread I saw this on, but as an engineer I might be able to shed a little light on the bolt strength issue. I realize that we are talking metric grade bolts, but the analogy is the same for SAE hardware. A grade 8 bolt is stronger in tension and is harder than a grade 5 bolt, however; it is also harder and more brittle. A grade 5 bolt is in fact stronger in shear because it will deform slightly before is shears off. A grade 8 will usually form a hairline crack and break right off. I completely agree that the bolts are backing off and then shearing, but moving to grade 8 hardware will not solve your problem if the bolts continue to back out. Also, someone mentioned stainless steel hardware. Bad Idea! Stainless steel and aluminum get along as well as brother and sister siblings. If interested, do an internet search on galvanic reaction. In summary, you create a battery between the two dissimilar metals. Never use stainless bolts in contact with aluminum.
I forget which thread I saw this on, but as an engineer I might be able to shed a little light on the bolt strength issue. I realize that we are talking metric grade bolts, but the analogy is the same for SAE hardware. A grade 8 bolt is stronger in tension and is harder than a grade 5 bolt, however; it is also harder and more brittle. A grade 5 bolt is in fact stronger in shear because it will deform slightly before is shears off. A grade 8 will usually form a hairline crack and break right off. I completely agree that the bolts are backing off and then shearing, but moving to grade 8 hardware will not solve your problem if the bolts continue to back out. Also, someone mentioned stainless steel hardware. Bad Idea! Stainless steel and aluminum get along as well as brother and sister siblings. If interested, do an internet search on galvanic reaction. In summary, you create a battery between the two dissimilar metals. Never use stainless bolts in contact with aluminum.
Grimm
TY 4 Stroke God
Hey Grizzly, do you know what grade the bolts that AD Boivin used on these skids? Are they grade 5? 8? something else? From memory, I believe they are stamped with the numbers 10.9
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
9.8 is the metric equivalent to an SAE grade 5 and 10.9 is an equivalent to SAE grade 8. I should state "rough" equivalent. I have always correlated them in this fashion, but never researched to see if they are truly identical. I.E. I'm pretty sure I am correct, but don't take it for gospel.
Anyone else agree/disagree with this opinion?
Anyone else agree/disagree with this opinion?
SnoWarrior
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I think you are right on the grade of bolt. If I remember when I picked up bolts to replace the broken one, it had 10.9 on it and the box said grade 8.
I just finished installing the 2 new bolts and washers that Jeff sent me, "Thanks again".
The bolts came with some locking coating on them. I called and was told I could add a little red loctite to the very end of the bolt where their coating ended.
I found the easiest way to replace these bolts is to loosen the track, and attach a ratchet strap to where the shock adjusting slots are and put some pressure on the strap. This pulls the skid back and allows the holes to line up with the shaft. After loosening the track, let the back end down so the skid had weight on it.
I just finished installing the 2 new bolts and washers that Jeff sent me, "Thanks again".
The bolts came with some locking coating on them. I called and was told I could add a little red loctite to the very end of the bolt where their coating ended.
I found the easiest way to replace these bolts is to loosen the track, and attach a ratchet strap to where the shock adjusting slots are and put some pressure on the strap. This pulls the skid back and allows the holes to line up with the shaft. After loosening the track, let the back end down so the skid had weight on it.
Attachments
Picksoo
Veteran
AD Boivin has just issued the service bulletin ZX2-2008-SB001 for the ZX2 suspension. This bulletin is to be sent to all owners of a ZX2 Suspension
stoutner
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
My right side revolver bolt came out when riding this past weekend. I went to a hardware store to get it running. I found a 10mm 1.25 pitch that was about 2.5" long. I installed it with a washer that i bought and it kept coming loose. I did put blue locktite on but it didn't have time to set up as I was on the trail. Anyhow, I had to keep tightening it all day and by the end of the day the threads were stripped out of the rod.
Anyway, I e-mailed Jeff today to send me the new parts that I need to get it back together. I wish I had checked and torqued all of my bolts prior to this. It would have saved me a whole lot of grief.
I hope I don't have to drop the whole skid to change that rod???
Anyway, I e-mailed Jeff today to send me the new parts that I need to get it back together. I wish I had checked and torqued all of my bolts prior to this. It would have saved me a whole lot of grief.
I hope I don't have to drop the whole skid to change that rod???
06vectorgt
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Picksoo said:
Picksoo,
I can't get this to download, where else can I find it. I would like to see it ASAP while there is no rideable snow and their calling for 70 degrees tomorrow. (No heated garage here)
Picksoo
Veteran
I tested the download and it works. I got the file by e-mail from AD Boivin. They are to send it to all who purchased the suspension. Try again to download. If you still can't download, send me your e-mail address and I will sent it to you.
06vectorgt
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Picksoo said:
Picksoo - Opened this time! Thank you so much!!!
Just a quick tip to everyone having trouble with bolts backing out. Be sure to clean the threads as best as you can before assembling with loktite. Not everyone has access to compressed air, but I have found using a can of non-chlorinated brake cleaner or electrical contact cleaner works very well. It has the pressure to blast out the gunk, and it will evaporate leaving no oily film. I've had good luck with it in the past. If the threads are dirty/oily, the loktite will not be as effective. Just my $.02 worth.
