GotJuice
Expert
partially agee
I partially agree, they could have dominated the market with the 800 and SHOULD HAVE, but didn't.....backing my earlier conclusion. They weren't necessarily interested in dominating! Shock valving is like the W arm fix....doesn't make sense, why not fix it and solve a big problem...doesn't make sense from any point, financial or other wise. If the Yamaha suspensions were the best design geometrically then why hasn't anyone else used a similar desing.....hmmm that right there should tell you! Sure they can work but everyone else has used a torsion sprung desing for many years for a reason....they work and with the proper valving they work well! They also don't have the high load problems on the arms of the suspension causing failures...like the W arm problem. Now the Bikes are a good example of what they could do if this was the desire, they are in the top running but I would not say dominating by any means! Most of the guys that are into bikes highly reccomend the Huyabusa over the R-1 or several other makes, so don't think because the R-1 makes 200H.P. it's the end all to be all, yes it's a nice Bike that performs well but not the most desired street bike by the masses. The Bikes make Yamaha more money and therefore have to be competitively engineered and or looking for the number one spot because what wins on Sunday sells on Monday.
>>>99SRX700 said:
I partially agree, they could have dominated the market with the 800 and SHOULD HAVE, but didn't.....backing my earlier conclusion. They weren't necessarily interested in dominating! Shock valving is like the W arm fix....doesn't make sense, why not fix it and solve a big problem...doesn't make sense from any point, financial or other wise. If the Yamaha suspensions were the best design geometrically then why hasn't anyone else used a similar desing.....hmmm that right there should tell you! Sure they can work but everyone else has used a torsion sprung desing for many years for a reason....they work and with the proper valving they work well! They also don't have the high load problems on the arms of the suspension causing failures...like the W arm problem. Now the Bikes are a good example of what they could do if this was the desire, they are in the top running but I would not say dominating by any means! Most of the guys that are into bikes highly reccomend the Huyabusa over the R-1 or several other makes, so don't think because the R-1 makes 200H.P. it's the end all to be all, yes it's a nice Bike that performs well but not the most desired street bike by the masses. The Bikes make Yamaha more money and therefore have to be competitively engineered and or looking for the number one spot because what wins on Sunday sells on Monday.
99SRX700
Extreme
Got Juice,
The others did copy them by duplicating the concept of "fully coupled" suspensions. The idea is to link the motion of the rear and front control arms in the skid in a way that is limited. I am not going to go into detail as to how they all did it but they all had their own approach. Fast did the same as Yamaha with the M10, geometrically they worked the same, there was a law suit about this and I have yet to find out what the result was. The last I heard was fast brought the idea to the market first but Yamaha had actually developed it first, they just hadn't put it in their production sleds yet, although I am not sure if that had any significance in the case.
I think you are right about the excess load on the control arms and maybe thats why they break. I rode the apex GT last winter with full Ohlins and it was as good as it gets as far as suspension goes. It made the stutters disappear yet didn't bottom despite being on some very rough trail. I have ridden them all and I think a full Ohlins Yamaha set up is just as good as anything else. Whats the difference with the ohlins? Valving, then again I am a 165lb rider and I am beginning to think that maybe this is important since I am under the impression its guys my size yamahas are oriented towards.
As far as bikes go, the busa and the R1 are completely differnt bikes. The busa is a tank and all power! The idea behind the R1 is to have power but still be a great sport bike that goes well around the track. The guys I talk to at the track have always loved the R1's and rated them very well. The general opinion seems to revolve around the R1's and the GSXR's in that category. Frankly, I have never heard anyone try to compare an R1 with a Busa. The last track day I went to last summer I was listening to a group of guys talk about how the only bike they could compare the Ducatis to in handling was were the Aprilia and the R1. If you want raw power, you obviously are going to choose the Busa, but on the track from what I have heard most would take the R1 in a heartbeat. Frankly if you go to the track and start asking guys about brining a Busa you might get lauged at, which further shows how much different they really are. I very rarely see Busas at the track up here. I am a 600 guy so frankly I can't really comment. The bike market in general is very tight and the gap between the best and worst is very narrow so no one really seems to march ahead. Anyone who says others wise is either trying to compare two different bikes or just very brand loyal.
The others did copy them by duplicating the concept of "fully coupled" suspensions. The idea is to link the motion of the rear and front control arms in the skid in a way that is limited. I am not going to go into detail as to how they all did it but they all had their own approach. Fast did the same as Yamaha with the M10, geometrically they worked the same, there was a law suit about this and I have yet to find out what the result was. The last I heard was fast brought the idea to the market first but Yamaha had actually developed it first, they just hadn't put it in their production sleds yet, although I am not sure if that had any significance in the case.
I think you are right about the excess load on the control arms and maybe thats why they break. I rode the apex GT last winter with full Ohlins and it was as good as it gets as far as suspension goes. It made the stutters disappear yet didn't bottom despite being on some very rough trail. I have ridden them all and I think a full Ohlins Yamaha set up is just as good as anything else. Whats the difference with the ohlins? Valving, then again I am a 165lb rider and I am beginning to think that maybe this is important since I am under the impression its guys my size yamahas are oriented towards.
As far as bikes go, the busa and the R1 are completely differnt bikes. The busa is a tank and all power! The idea behind the R1 is to have power but still be a great sport bike that goes well around the track. The guys I talk to at the track have always loved the R1's and rated them very well. The general opinion seems to revolve around the R1's and the GSXR's in that category. Frankly, I have never heard anyone try to compare an R1 with a Busa. The last track day I went to last summer I was listening to a group of guys talk about how the only bike they could compare the Ducatis to in handling was were the Aprilia and the R1. If you want raw power, you obviously are going to choose the Busa, but on the track from what I have heard most would take the R1 in a heartbeat. Frankly if you go to the track and start asking guys about brining a Busa you might get lauged at, which further shows how much different they really are. I very rarely see Busas at the track up here. I am a 600 guy so frankly I can't really comment. The bike market in general is very tight and the gap between the best and worst is very narrow so no one really seems to march ahead. Anyone who says others wise is either trying to compare two different bikes or just very brand loyal.
GotJuice
Expert
good conversation
I agree with your thoughts on the bikes, my comment on the BUSA was H.P. related, comparing R-1 with the BUSA for H.P. not how it handled on the track, I don't think I brought up the track except in the closing statement about winning was not comparing handling. The busa handles like a turd in comparison.
It is however nice to have a good conversation without getting huffy or offended, to often guys take offense to internet chat...this has been good!
Like you said the Ohlins have good valving for smaller riders, unfortunately Yamaha hasn't adopted the valving in the GYTR shocks or the other shocks they use. I suppose the way to make everyone happy would be exclusive Ohlin equipped sleds....LOL. That would be awonderful but not cost effective. The lawsuit is an interesting topic....funny how it's not highly publicised.
My point still stands, for the past 15 years or longer the others have ran the torsion spring design and Yamaha has had there own coupled version. Yamaha historically has had complaints on there rear skid, from every magazine and all non biased riders have disliked Yamaha rear skid for 15 years that I'm familiar with. Everyone knows this and has been unhappy with them, yes the late mono shock has it's high points but mainly for you little guys.
America is an obese country, it's actually an epidemic. The average male in America is 5-9" and 200lbs, Yet everyone who buys a Yamaha sled has to beef up there rear skid, change the wheels and revalve shocks to have a compliant ride, unless your 175 or under.
Twelve Thousand dollars for a machine with these problems is a serious issue' that must be dealt with for our beloved Yamaha to continue to be well liked. So many guys have said on here and all the other forums I visit they are waiting for Doo or Cat to come out with a solid 4 stroke so they can jump ship.....I hope Yamaha realizes this. They can't continue to sell sleds just for the motor and tight fitting plastic, this is the reality of our country....everyone is always looking for a better something especially with their expensive optional toys.
I agree with your thoughts on the bikes, my comment on the BUSA was H.P. related, comparing R-1 with the BUSA for H.P. not how it handled on the track, I don't think I brought up the track except in the closing statement about winning was not comparing handling. The busa handles like a turd in comparison.
It is however nice to have a good conversation without getting huffy or offended, to often guys take offense to internet chat...this has been good!
Like you said the Ohlins have good valving for smaller riders, unfortunately Yamaha hasn't adopted the valving in the GYTR shocks or the other shocks they use. I suppose the way to make everyone happy would be exclusive Ohlin equipped sleds....LOL. That would be awonderful but not cost effective. The lawsuit is an interesting topic....funny how it's not highly publicised.
My point still stands, for the past 15 years or longer the others have ran the torsion spring design and Yamaha has had there own coupled version. Yamaha historically has had complaints on there rear skid, from every magazine and all non biased riders have disliked Yamaha rear skid for 15 years that I'm familiar with. Everyone knows this and has been unhappy with them, yes the late mono shock has it's high points but mainly for you little guys.
America is an obese country, it's actually an epidemic. The average male in America is 5-9" and 200lbs, Yet everyone who buys a Yamaha sled has to beef up there rear skid, change the wheels and revalve shocks to have a compliant ride, unless your 175 or under.
Twelve Thousand dollars for a machine with these problems is a serious issue' that must be dealt with for our beloved Yamaha to continue to be well liked. So many guys have said on here and all the other forums I visit they are waiting for Doo or Cat to come out with a solid 4 stroke so they can jump ship.....I hope Yamaha realizes this. They can't continue to sell sleds just for the motor and tight fitting plastic, this is the reality of our country....everyone is always looking for a better something especially with their expensive optional toys.
Phatboyc
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Re: good conversation
Are Maxsled reviewers all "little"? They praise the mono shock.
http://ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=61255&highlight=praise
GotJuice said:
Are Maxsled reviewers all "little"? They praise the mono shock.
http://ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=61255&highlight=praise
SISCAKIDD
Expert
did you know that yamaha now makes a torsion spring rear skid,in both normal and heavy duty calibration,check the nytro out .
LJ 452
TY 4 Stroke God
SISCAKIDD said:
Correct, but the valving is still far from great. The Mono is likely the smoothest skid ever built. Just requires a lot of beefing-up, and money to make it handle the big stuff. Which is why putting it in "Groomed Trail" sleds is a good idea and works. I think the valving changes made over the coarse of the Apex's life have proved to help for the heavier guys. I do feel that the sleds should be sprung for people averaging 200-225. As with the adjustable valving could allow smaller riders to achive a smooth ride as well. As stated 175 lbs. is NOT the average weight of an American snowmobiler. Now the ProAction, well not sure were to start, the Dual Shock, seems to take the abuse, now it's just a matter of getting the valving down.
99SRX700
Extreme
I think they are kind of over looking a simple detail with the rear skids, and I agree that it doesn't make sense. I firmly believe its the valving, and not the way the suspension works. The answer is not to run Ohlins, but simply to use progressive valving in whatever shock they run, which wouldn't be a pricey move. There is a great post somewhere on this site about progressive valving and how easily it can be done. Anyone who has the tools to rebuild shocks can do it themselves if they know what combinations of washers to stack.
I wonder if we could create some kind of consolidated customer feed back through this site thats narrowed down to resolvable issues whicheveryone could agree they would like to see changed. I.E, failing W arms, progressive valving in the shocks, etc. I know Yamaha has there ways of gathering information and customer feedback but it seems they are missing some big points. Or has this already been done and I just don't know about it?
Gotjuice I completely missed your point about the bikes. I actually thought you were trying to compare the two overall.
I wonder if we could create some kind of consolidated customer feed back through this site thats narrowed down to resolvable issues whicheveryone could agree they would like to see changed. I.E, failing W arms, progressive valving in the shocks, etc. I know Yamaha has there ways of gathering information and customer feedback but it seems they are missing some big points. Or has this already been done and I just don't know about it?
Gotjuice I completely missed your point about the bikes. I actually thought you were trying to compare the two overall.
Crewchief47
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99SRX700 said:
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=56313 is in the Apex board as a sticky for those of you who haven't seen it.
Cobalt
Expert
My RTX shocks are at Carver Performance as I type this, I'm getting the work done based on that thread from Rex!
It is a very long thread but it makes sense, I guess time will tell?
Cobalt
It is a very long thread but it makes sense, I guess time will tell?
Cobalt
GotJuice
Expert
BINGO
Yeah I agree, valving would make up for alot and making the shocks more compliant progressively might even relieve a little stress on the W arms...time would tell after installing properly valved shocks. It's amazing the difference it makes! Anyone who hasn't done this can't completely comment on the true problem. The ride is incredibly different once they've been multi stage valved. I just read a comparo today on the Doo 4 stroke and the Yamaha Nytro which they stated repeatedly the Doo have a more compliant, confidence inspiring suspension and related it to the dialed in shocks on the Doo! This has been the story over and over , someone should revalve a Nytro by Pioneer or Carver and have them demo it again agaist the Doo! THIS would be a better comparison and the difference would be well publicized! Yamaha has gone great distances with the Nytro and Apex RTX skids and all they need to truly be competitive is correct valving, regardless of the rider weights! If nothing else ,maybe this thread will inspire folks to have there shocks revalved and see the difference creating more Yamaha lovers....LOL, and maybe more feedback so they'll eventually do this on there own.
On another note it's snowing like hell here and I can't ride until I get all my chit back from Half Baked Powder Coatings.....should have started sooner I suppose...gonna be purdy when it's done though...LOL.
>>>99SRX700 said:
Yeah I agree, valving would make up for alot and making the shocks more compliant progressively might even relieve a little stress on the W arms...time would tell after installing properly valved shocks. It's amazing the difference it makes! Anyone who hasn't done this can't completely comment on the true problem. The ride is incredibly different once they've been multi stage valved. I just read a comparo today on the Doo 4 stroke and the Yamaha Nytro which they stated repeatedly the Doo have a more compliant, confidence inspiring suspension and related it to the dialed in shocks on the Doo! This has been the story over and over , someone should revalve a Nytro by Pioneer or Carver and have them demo it again agaist the Doo! THIS would be a better comparison and the difference would be well publicized! Yamaha has gone great distances with the Nytro and Apex RTX skids and all they need to truly be competitive is correct valving, regardless of the rider weights! If nothing else ,maybe this thread will inspire folks to have there shocks revalved and see the difference creating more Yamaha lovers....LOL, and maybe more feedback so they'll eventually do this on there own.
On another note it's snowing like hell here and I can't ride until I get all my chit back from Half Baked Powder Coatings.....should have started sooner I suppose...gonna be purdy when it's done though...LOL.
What sled is this/
gytr done
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