Deleting Reverse Gearbox - 2007 Phazer

[FlatOverCrest]

Hello all.

I am curious if anyone has successfully deleted the complex and seemingly problematic reverse gearbox on their phazer?
I am looking to reduce weight, complexity, rotating mass and potential failure points. I do not currently use reverse at all.

It looks like grabbing a non reverse secondary jack shaft and some fresh bearings for good measure might be all I need?

Secondary Shaft part number should be 8GC-17681-00-00

I would then need to plug the oil feed and return ports however I am struggling to find if the chain cases are the same between reverse and non reverse phazers and if the holes are just plugged or if they are non existent in the reverse deleted models.

I am also not sure if I need an additional bearing holder for the chain case side. (part 1 in the diagrams below)

If anyone has any advice I would appreciate it!

Thanks
Erik

​

 

[Mooseman]

There is a difference between the side plates of the reverse and non-reverse sleds. I know someone who wanted to add reverse and had to replace it with the reverse version. I think it was missing mounting points or the proper hole for the reverse gear input shaft. There is a difference in part numbers for that plate assembly and it has an extra seal.

Left image is non-reverse and right is with reverse. Notice that #14 is the plate assembly and it includes #17 seal (part #93102-26398-00). Notice on the reverse there is no #17 seal since the bearing from reverse gear box gets lubricated there. The plate assemblies are also different. Non-reverse is #8GC-21930-00-00 and reverse is #8GK-21930-00-00. More than likely the reverse version will not accommodate the non-reverse seal #17. You could order that seal and see if it will fit. If it doesn't, you will need to find a non-reverse version of that plate, used or new (listed at $1,187.24 CAD) or find another seal that might fit in there while sealing on the shaft.

 

[FlatOverCrest]

Thank you Mooseman.

Yeah it looks like you are right. I have been trying to compare images of the plates and have had little luck identifying differences but that nails it on the head. I was hoping the difference in part numbers was just for oil provisions. I wish I had parts sitting side by side!

 

[BETHEVIPER]

wish you were closer, I would love to swap all my non reverse with a reverse. I plan on adding it later anyway. I will be making mine manual engagement at best, aux switch actuated at worst.

 

[Mooseman]

I will be making mine manual engagement at best, aux switch actuated at worst.

That's how the guy that converted to reverse did it with a DPDT switch. It's more reliable than the ECU controlled crap. You control the shift motor. If you wanted to, you could also exchange wiring harnesses and gauge pods.

I can see you guys sending each other the parts. It's a match made on the snow

 

[FlatOverCrest]

Mooseman you're funny, I don't care what the others say about you.

I don't know if a parts swap is quite the direction yet. I started looking into this after experiencing the same gearbox symptoms many have.

The impact tool thuds at steady state throttle, 16 mph slight uphill would yield what sounded like a whack on the frame from a dead blow hammer and a break in power delivery(skipping dogs I presume) and it would happen every 6-12 seconds.About every 4th time it would happen I would see the drive light flicker. Before that had happened I had two instances where I goosed the throttle at lower speeds and it popped out of drive entirely, followed by the sounds of grinding gears. The first time it had happened was the first ride of this year, just after reversing. I assumed it did not find its way into drive completely. Popped it into reverse and then drive again. All seemed fine until recently.

I pulled the crankcase drain plug after looking for signs of leaks assuming the case was going to be dry. To my surprise about 8oz of black gear oil came out, some shimmer to it but no chunks.

I almost have the reverse box out now. I pulled the actuator off and there is a mess of fluid in the box. It is nasty fluid. There was almost a sludge build up on the bottom of the actuator it was so dirty. Almost looks like some kind of contamination? I had drained and refilled the crankcase 3 years ago right after I bought the sled. Same thing, old black gear oil but no drama.

The shift for moves freely and the travel and engagement seems to be great. The sled does find reverse easier than most (spent a lot of time on this last year).

My concerns are:

After pulling the chain case cover the chain seems stretched. I had about 3 full turns left on the adjustment screw. I am trying to find a spec on what the chain length should be? Looking into this now.

I can place the shift fork in a middle position and spin the brake side jack shaft freely. (I am not sure it should have a neutral spot but I dont know.) The brake side has some end play but no lateral movement. The bearing seems intact, but with the loose chain and the gear problems I was expecting to find this bearing trashed or missing.

I am wondering if my actuator might be going bad. I am going to check its function today. I am wondering if it was completing its full sweep.

It had the original (short) oil pipe. The cup had a chunk taken out of it (assuming from contact with the chain) but did seem to be feeding oil just fine. I am assuming this didn't get damaged during my ownership but seems like the sled was run at some point with a very loose chain?

My fuel mileage has always been terrible 8-12 mpg at low speeds often carrying 160-250 lbs. Track tension is great. Hyfax are new, maybe bearing failure? I assume this is unrelated, but maybe not.

So the hunt continues. But I do think it would be great to lose all this complexity and mass and just add a jackshaft! Why didn't this happen at the end of last year!

Erik

 

[Mooseman]

Sounds like your reverse has the same issue my son's 09 had. Ratcheting when moving forward, almost like an impact. Take a look at the pictures in this post. Shows the difference between the good and bad boxes.

Reverse Gear Box Inspection

I started a new thread since my problem has changed from "chaincase oil leak" to "reverse gearbox inspection". The previous thread was: http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=122264 My servo motor seems to be working as designed based on testing of putting power to the forward and...

ty4stroke.com

Sounds like you're finding that spot in between the forward and reverse dog gears. It's not a neutral.

 

[BETHEVIPER]

you may want to pull you actuator apart and check to see if the gear is stripped. These are worm gear actuated and the worm engages only a few teeth of the drive gear. This spot will wear quick where it hits a load. I see this in door window motors that drive the same way with a worm gear. Sometimes you could flip the gear or turn the gear so that it lands in a new spot and it would work fine. The problem would be when it hit full up it would hit the stripped part of the gear and wouldn't hold the window up. you would have to hold down a bit to get it to catch another tooth to make it go back down. Worth a look.

The issue might be that the motor is moving it into reverse and out but has enough slop to not hold it in place.

Hope you get it figured out. I remember when these first came out I was at my dealer checking one out that imploded and thought, "What were they thinking. At best they might have saved 2 lbs." They should have just made a new cover and used all of the old tried and true parts we have been beating on for years and just actuate it with a simple cable like I had on my Superventure. The only extra weight that I had on that reverse kit was a cable, lever and extra gears inside.

If I tackle the reverse, it will be a next fall thing.

 

[FlatOverCrest]

BETHEVIPER that is great insight. I couldn't agree more, it would be great to have that just be solely mechanical. I will see if I can inspect that a bit better today. It would be fantastic if I could fix things that simply. I am still just shocked to find so much oil in that case and everything moving freely. It might just be that simple (is it ever?). Thanks!

 

[BETHEVIPER]

doesn't that oil by scraping oil off the chain and throwing it into the reverse case where it bleeds out back into the case? It has been alot of years since I have seen one.

 

[Mooseman]

It doesn't scrape the oil but the oil pipe catches oil flung from the chain and then goes into the reverse gear box where it just gets flung around in there. There was an updated pipe and seal to correct a leak between the two. The 07 definitely has the old short pipe and seal unless it was upgraded in the past.

07' FX chain case leak????

I helped my friend michdog2011 buy his first Yamaha this summer which was an 07' FX with less than a 1,000 miles on it. He bought this from another friend of mine. Actually I helped my other friend buy this FX last year when it had 350 miles on it. Anyways, it is a low mileage, garaged stored...

ty4stroke.com

 

[FlatOverCrest]

Well... The plot thickens.

Sourcing parts is driving me nuts! I have a non reverse secondary shaft. The seal I need is on backorder and keeps getting pushed farther back. I have another reverse gearbox on the way along with an updated (longer) oil pipe but the longer grommet is on backorder.

I went out to keep making progress on removing the old reverse gearbox today and pulled off the secondary and found a new surprise. See attached photos. Looks like the circlip failed and tossed my SB helix into the jackshaft bearing... $%$&^@*^@*&^!

Any guesses this could be my problem all along? Seems unlikely this would cause the drive light to flicker but it does explain some of the repetitive noise at specific speeds and loads I guess. I am not yet sure if this caused the bearing to fail entirely and then in turn caused quick failure of the reverse gearbox? Back to trying to source parts fast in the age of covid! Woo Hoo!

Erik

 

[Mooseman]

Quite possible but the clutch will have to be replaced regardless. I know those that have had this happen went with another type of clutch.

The New Secondary Brain Child Is Done And Is Easy To Do

Well the stock Phazer secondary took a crap and I was not gone to be limited to fixing that pathedic vintage thing. So the brain child went to work on a fix with some adjustability options and found it pretty easy. My dealer gave me a new style secondary clutch to borrow from the 2010-11 models...

ty4stroke.com

And if you use an old style (same) clutch, this is a better fix for that clip:

Secondary clutch venture mp

I have a 2016 venture MP and having some serious problems with my clutch. The secondary is held together with a snap ring on the hilicle side of the clutch. I had the clutch apart to change the plastic sliders as they where worn out. Cleaned and reassembled it and reinstalled it on the machine...

ty4stroke.com

If you find a used one, do not reuse the old C-clip except for adjusting the clutch. Always use a new clip before putting the clutch into service and ensure the flat sharp side is facing out.

Check with Travis at Barn of Parts. He might have an idea as to what clutch you could use instead of the stock one.

I had the flickering D light and had a lot of issues shifting into reverse, the worse being when I pushed the button and nothing happened. It was the most frustrating thing. But you don't really care about being able to shift into reverse so if you have that flickering light, just ignore it.

Edit: Just found another secondary clutch type:

Reverse Secondary Install

Lots more on this subject including specific year clutch needed to do this.There are TWO options one requires machining shaft other just a bushing: http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=101732 Just bushing: I messed up my stock secondary so nows the time to go for it for me. So I am...

ty4stroke.com

 

[FlatOverCrest]

Quite possible but the clutch will have to be replaced regardless. I know those that have had this happen went with another type of clutch.

The New Secondary Brain Child Is Done And Is Easy To Do

Well the stock Phazer secondary took a crap and I was not gone to be limited to fixing that pathedic vintage thing. So the brain child went to work on a fix with some adjustability options and found it pretty easy. My dealer gave me a new style secondary clutch to borrow from the 2010-11 models...

ty4stroke.com

And if you use an old style (same) clutch, this is a better fix for that clip:

Secondary clutch venture mp

I have a 2016 venture MP and having some serious problems with my clutch. The secondary is held together with a snap ring on the hilicle side of the clutch. I had the clutch apart to change the plastic sliders as they where worn out. Cleaned and reassembled it and reinstalled it on the machine...

ty4stroke.com

You're a bastion of knowledge again. I started reading through that last night, already have some emails out on to some people parting out some vmax's. I actually think my helix is going to be okay. I am going to check ring mating surfaces well and have all new clips and washers HOPEFULLY on their way. I might toss this back together to see if it fixes the problems that I thought were the reverse gearbox. But this reverse secondary definitely seems like the correct way to add reliability going forward. I need a reliable sled. That project is in motion!

If you find a used one, do not reuse the old C-clip except for adjusting the clutch. Always use a new clip before putting the clutch into service and ensure the flat sharp side is facing out.

Check with Travis at Barn of Parts. He might have an idea as to what clutch you could use instead of the stock one.

I had the flickering D light and had a lot of issues shifting into reverse, the worse being when I pushed the button and nothing happened. It was the most frustrating thing. But you don't really care about being able to shift into reverse so if you have that flickering light, just ignore it.

Edit: Just found another secondary clutch type:

Reverse Secondary Install

Lots more on this subject including specific year clutch needed to do this.There are TWO options one requires machining shaft other just a bushing: http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=101732 Just bushing: I messed up my stock secondary so nows the time to go for it for me. So I am...

ty4stroke.com

I had the drive light flicker when I had the "impact wrench" sound. To refresh it was under light load going uphill and at a constant 6mph, I could almost count to 6 and hear another thunk. It didn't thunk every 6 seconds but often did. I limped like this for about 1.5 miles. Maybe every 4th time I heard a thunk is when I would see the D light flicker. The sled was actually changing gears with very little drama. Often just shifting my weight back and forth while on the sled and it being on flat ground I would get reverse.

 

[Mooseman]

Same as on my son's. It actually shifted into reverse very well, better than mine, but would ratchet going forward. Don't remember the light flickering or not. Mine the light would flicker without fail when I let go of the throttle but never had any ratcheting. The switches in the reverse gear box are contacts to ground by the shifter fork. Maybe it's not seating completely into the forward dog gear causing the "impact noise" as well as losing contact to the switch.

You might have problems with the gear box and the secondary clutch.