SuperStroker!
Pro
I have provided some interesting information that is important to consider and may help explain some overheating situations and why they might be isolated to some machines that have a higher concentration of Anti-Freeze than necessary to avoid freezing.
How many of you have dumped pure Glycol Based Anti-Freeze in the surge tank to raise the coolant level in the cooling system?
Bad idea!
I recommend that everone of us that toy with snowmobiles or anything with coolant, understand that less or the least amount of Anti-Freeze is better and actually, no antifreeze at all provides the best thermo-conductivity! So if you run the grass or asphalt in the summer, loose the Anti-Freeze.
Buy a good quality tool to measure your protection level and your concentration of anti-freeze and keep the necessary balance constant by adding water rather than anti-freeze if it is not necessary for freeze protection.
If your concerned with all of the lubrication, anti-corrosion properties of anti-freeze, in cases where you use little or no anti-freeze (Glycol) at all, add the correct amount of RED LINE WATER WETTER and forget it!
RED LINE WATER WETTER should also be added to EVERYONES cooling systems on all snowmobiles...it will improve heat transfer and reduce, if not eliminate the cooling issues in marginal snow, within reason.
Red Line Water Wetter is great stuff but FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER on the container and DO NOT add more than recommended.
I have seen cases where the motor wouldn't make enough heat to keep up and allows the engine to run too cold and cause problems.
This stuff works!
THERMAL PROPERTIES
Water has amazingly superior heat transfer properties compared to virtually any other liquid cooling medium - far superior to glycol-based coolants. As shown in Table 1, water has almost 2.5 times greater thermal conductivity compared to glycol coolants. Mixtures of glycol and water have nearly proportional improvement due to the addition of water. Most heat is transferred in a cooling system by convection from hot metal to a cooler liquid as in the engine block or from a hot liquid to cooler metal surfaces, as in the radiator. The convection coefficient of liquids in a tube is a complicated relationship between the thermal conductivity, viscosity of the liquid, and the tube diameter which determines the amount of turbulent flow. Since 50/50 glycol solution has about 4 times the viscosity and only 70% of the thermal conductivity of water, the thermal convection coefficient for a 50/50 glycol solution is approximately 50% of the coefficient for water. Water in the cooling system is capable of transferring twice as much heat out of the same system as compared to a 50/50 glycol coolant and water solution. In order for a 50/50 glycol mixture to reject as much heat as water (amount of heat rejected is independent of the coolant), the temperature differentials at the heat transfer surface must be twice as great, which means higher cylinder head temperatures.
Table 1
Thermal Properties of Cooling System Materials
Material Density
g/cm3 Thermal
Conductivity
Watt/m · °C Thermal
Convection
Watt/m · °C Heat
Capacity
cal/g · °C Heat of
Vaporization
cal/g
Water 1.000 0.60 1829 1.000 539
Glycol 1.114 0.25 ------ 0.573 226
50/50 1.059 0.41 897 0.836 374
Aluminum 2.70 155 0.225
Cast Iron 7.25 58 0.119
Copper 8.93 384 0.093
Brass 8.40 113 0.091
Ceramics 1 - 10
Air .0013 .026 0.240
Based on the above information, it should be clear to all of us that we need to monitor the ratio of Anti- freeze and water. Pure Anti-freeze in any colloing system will probably transfer so little heat that internal engine damage from overheating can, will and probably did already cause some of us problems with our motors!
How many of you have dumped pure Glycol Based Anti-Freeze in the surge tank to raise the coolant level in the cooling system?
Bad idea!
I recommend that everone of us that toy with snowmobiles or anything with coolant, understand that less or the least amount of Anti-Freeze is better and actually, no antifreeze at all provides the best thermo-conductivity! So if you run the grass or asphalt in the summer, loose the Anti-Freeze.
Buy a good quality tool to measure your protection level and your concentration of anti-freeze and keep the necessary balance constant by adding water rather than anti-freeze if it is not necessary for freeze protection.
If your concerned with all of the lubrication, anti-corrosion properties of anti-freeze, in cases where you use little or no anti-freeze (Glycol) at all, add the correct amount of RED LINE WATER WETTER and forget it!
RED LINE WATER WETTER should also be added to EVERYONES cooling systems on all snowmobiles...it will improve heat transfer and reduce, if not eliminate the cooling issues in marginal snow, within reason.
Red Line Water Wetter is great stuff but FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER on the container and DO NOT add more than recommended.
I have seen cases where the motor wouldn't make enough heat to keep up and allows the engine to run too cold and cause problems.
This stuff works!
THERMAL PROPERTIES
Water has amazingly superior heat transfer properties compared to virtually any other liquid cooling medium - far superior to glycol-based coolants. As shown in Table 1, water has almost 2.5 times greater thermal conductivity compared to glycol coolants. Mixtures of glycol and water have nearly proportional improvement due to the addition of water. Most heat is transferred in a cooling system by convection from hot metal to a cooler liquid as in the engine block or from a hot liquid to cooler metal surfaces, as in the radiator. The convection coefficient of liquids in a tube is a complicated relationship between the thermal conductivity, viscosity of the liquid, and the tube diameter which determines the amount of turbulent flow. Since 50/50 glycol solution has about 4 times the viscosity and only 70% of the thermal conductivity of water, the thermal convection coefficient for a 50/50 glycol solution is approximately 50% of the coefficient for water. Water in the cooling system is capable of transferring twice as much heat out of the same system as compared to a 50/50 glycol coolant and water solution. In order for a 50/50 glycol mixture to reject as much heat as water (amount of heat rejected is independent of the coolant), the temperature differentials at the heat transfer surface must be twice as great, which means higher cylinder head temperatures.
Table 1
Thermal Properties of Cooling System Materials
Material Density
g/cm3 Thermal
Conductivity
Watt/m · °C Thermal
Convection
Watt/m · °C Heat
Capacity
cal/g · °C Heat of
Vaporization
cal/g
Water 1.000 0.60 1829 1.000 539
Glycol 1.114 0.25 ------ 0.573 226
50/50 1.059 0.41 897 0.836 374
Aluminum 2.70 155 0.225
Cast Iron 7.25 58 0.119
Copper 8.93 384 0.093
Brass 8.40 113 0.091
Ceramics 1 - 10
Air .0013 .026 0.240
Based on the above information, it should be clear to all of us that we need to monitor the ratio of Anti- freeze and water. Pure Anti-freeze in any colloing system will probably transfer so little heat that internal engine damage from overheating can, will and probably did already cause some of us problems with our motors!
Sodes
Extreme
Overheating answered
Thanks, I think you may be correct. I recall watching the dealer add straight antifreeze when topping off the reserve tank. I'm a chemist by degree and your explaination is perfect. Thermal dynamics 101!!!
Thanks,
Sodes
Thanks, I think you may be correct. I recall watching the dealer add straight antifreeze when topping off the reserve tank. I'm a chemist by degree and your explaination is perfect. Thermal dynamics 101!!!
Thanks,
Sodes
SuperStroker!
Pro
The cooling problems are associated with conductivity between the heat exchangers and the environment. It doesn't matter what you put in it if there isn't enough surface area to get the heat off of. Even at 25/41=61% of the thermal conductivity, it would be more than enough to handle the heat of the engine.
Lazy, the cooling surface area is fixed, it's been provided by Yamaha when you buy the sled! The Enviornment is constantly changing, it is not fixed, therfore an improvement in the total number of BTUs, first transfered from the internal engine surfaces through an action called neucleat boiling, transfers heat into the liquid. The composition of the liquid used as a heat transfer medium is capable of transfering "X" number of BTUs per unit volume, based on its composition (Ratio of water to anything else). Heat is then transfered by a thermo-action called convection, to the fixed surface (heat exchanger). The coolant, its composition and its effective ability to neucleate boil, determine how much heat can be transferd per unit volume of cooling solution over a metal surface.
If I may, regardless of the evniornment and realitive to the size of the heat exchangers surface area, a better heat transfer fluid will trick the thermodynamic system to act like we added more surface area, again because more thermo-energy, in the form of BTUs is being transfered into the air, snow or lack there of.
The coolant or heat transfer fluid is the common demoninator here and I can express this phenom in mathmatical terms if you wish, to prove that your above state is only partially correct.
Conclusion: if you wish to improve the volume of heat that is transferd through your heat exchangers, everything else equal... Listen to what I'm trying to tell you! With all due respect...
Lazy, the cooling surface area is fixed, it's been provided by Yamaha when you buy the sled! The Enviornment is constantly changing, it is not fixed, therfore an improvement in the total number of BTUs, first transfered from the internal engine surfaces through an action called neucleat boiling, transfers heat into the liquid. The composition of the liquid used as a heat transfer medium is capable of transfering "X" number of BTUs per unit volume, based on its composition (Ratio of water to anything else). Heat is then transfered by a thermo-action called convection, to the fixed surface (heat exchanger). The coolant, its composition and its effective ability to neucleate boil, determine how much heat can be transferd per unit volume of cooling solution over a metal surface.
If I may, regardless of the evniornment and realitive to the size of the heat exchangers surface area, a better heat transfer fluid will trick the thermodynamic system to act like we added more surface area, again because more thermo-energy, in the form of BTUs is being transfered into the air, snow or lack there of.
The coolant or heat transfer fluid is the common demoninator here and I can express this phenom in mathmatical terms if you wish, to prove that your above state is only partially correct.
Conclusion: if you wish to improve the volume of heat that is transferd through your heat exchangers, everything else equal... Listen to what I'm trying to tell you! With all due respect...
SuperStroker!
Pro
Lazy, your comment suggests that the metal is saturated and there is "zero" driving force to remove heat... My friend, this is not the case!
You may waste your money on part number 8EP-RHECR-KT if you wish... after all your spending mony is good for our sport!
I would suggest you try Water Wetter at 7.95 a bottle and keep tabs on your ratio of Anti-Freeze and Water first...
Its your money!
You may waste your money on part number 8EP-RHECR-KT if you wish... after all your spending mony is good for our sport!
I would suggest you try Water Wetter at 7.95 a bottle and keep tabs on your ratio of Anti-Freeze and Water first...
Its your money!
SuperStroker!
Pro
Oh, and he LazyBastard, the second part of you comment is also may be incorrect!
Even though the thermostat may be closed, the is 1- a bypass hole in the thermostat to transfer a constant volume of coolant, based on the diameter of that bypass hole...again that is determined by the engineers that designed the engine at Yamaha R&D.
2- Lets say the bypass is insignificant. The heat exchangers hold the largest volume of coolant, not the engine. Did you know ther is a loop upstream of the thermostat that allows liquid to flow and it flows without a pump! There is another thermodynamic pheomom that drives fluids to move from hot to cold, without a driving force behind them, except in the case where the fliud is pressure locked. Thats why ther is a loop in the system, to prvent hydro-lock.
So, here's a situation where you can over-cool you engine and adding more surface area to your heat exchangers can actually lead to severe engine damage due to cold liquid entering your engine.
You riding in Canada, it is 40 degrees below zero, which it often is and we ride anyway! The thermostat is slammed shut but the bypass is still allowing fliid tpas a a restricted rate. You cruising at 70 mph with very little load on the engine, ya know, cruising on a nice flat Canada trail. You hammer her hard in a race with your buddy. The coolant in the exchangers has been looping around upstream of the thermostat, and all of a sudden your engine, which is now making heat, calls for the thermostat to open. A rush of extremely cold coolant flows through the thermostat and into the engine. Now remember, its really cold out side...
Guess what?
Go ahead, add the rear tunnel exchanger...I need a laugh, its Sunday and I have to go to work and engineer some stuff tomorrow and I'd rather stay home and work on my sled! Sucks doesn't it?
Ah it aint that bad!
Even though the thermostat may be closed, the is 1- a bypass hole in the thermostat to transfer a constant volume of coolant, based on the diameter of that bypass hole...again that is determined by the engineers that designed the engine at Yamaha R&D.
2- Lets say the bypass is insignificant. The heat exchangers hold the largest volume of coolant, not the engine. Did you know ther is a loop upstream of the thermostat that allows liquid to flow and it flows without a pump! There is another thermodynamic pheomom that drives fluids to move from hot to cold, without a driving force behind them, except in the case where the fliud is pressure locked. Thats why ther is a loop in the system, to prvent hydro-lock.
So, here's a situation where you can over-cool you engine and adding more surface area to your heat exchangers can actually lead to severe engine damage due to cold liquid entering your engine.
You riding in Canada, it is 40 degrees below zero, which it often is and we ride anyway! The thermostat is slammed shut but the bypass is still allowing fliid tpas a a restricted rate. You cruising at 70 mph with very little load on the engine, ya know, cruising on a nice flat Canada trail. You hammer her hard in a race with your buddy. The coolant in the exchangers has been looping around upstream of the thermostat, and all of a sudden your engine, which is now making heat, calls for the thermostat to open. A rush of extremely cold coolant flows through the thermostat and into the engine. Now remember, its really cold out side...
Guess what?
Go ahead, add the rear tunnel exchanger...I need a laugh, its Sunday and I have to go to work and engineer some stuff tomorrow and I'd rather stay home and work on my sled! Sucks doesn't it?
Ah it aint that bad!
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
Uh, that Red Line Water wetter is a good product. I first used it in about 94-95 on my TT RX-7. They said that it is most effective with no antifreeze. I called them and they said, 'antifreeze dilutes the thermal conductivity of not only our product, but water itself"
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
I have been through this with cars and car forums before. Though I cant find some of the better ones, this link will do.
http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool2.html
See #3
http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool2.html
See #3
JDKRXW
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Lazy; the thermal conductivity of the watter wetter is better than glycol.... it makes a better 'connection' with the engine and the exchangers. Because this 'connection' is better, more heat is transfered in the same exchanger.
JDKRXW
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
NHRX, the original post was about not adding PURE anti-freeze when topping up the collant level.
I'm sure 60/40 mix is fine, but MORE than that reduces the efficiency of the coolant. If the operating temp. of the engine needs to be more than the boiling point of water, presurising the system is much more efficient than reducing the carrying capacity of the coolant (1 psi adds 3 degrees F to the boiling point so a 10 pound cap lets you run at 242 degrees with straight water).
I'm sure 60/40 mix is fine, but MORE than that reduces the efficiency of the coolant. If the operating temp. of the engine needs to be more than the boiling point of water, presurising the system is much more efficient than reducing the carrying capacity of the coolant (1 psi adds 3 degrees F to the boiling point so a 10 pound cap lets you run at 242 degrees with straight water).
overheating problems
I haven't had a chance to ride the rx-1 hopefully no heat prob. but when I put pipes on my viper and everyone was having issues Bender advised putting watter wetter in till I could get an exchanger.I did and made sure all the air was out of the system and my light never came on.Rode for a month this way till the parts became availbile. It seems that it might have helped will be adding some to the new sled just for a little extra margin in temps.
I haven't had a chance to ride the rx-1 hopefully no heat prob. but when I put pipes on my viper and everyone was having issues Bender advised putting watter wetter in till I could get an exchanger.I did and made sure all the air was out of the system and my light never came on.Rode for a month this way till the parts became availbile. It seems that it might have helped will be adding some to the new sled just for a little extra margin in temps.
SuperStroker!
Pro
Read this and use it to your advantage, it may help us improve our understanding of cooling and how heat effects performance and how the ratio of water to Anti-Freeze is extremely important.
I post this information to help anyone who might be interested in improving the cooling or heat transfer in their cooling systems. This info might help us to resist overheating in situations where we might need a little extra help, hard snow etc. This stuff works really well for me and I have seen significant reduction in coolant temps on my sleds. WATER WETTER IS RECOMMENDED FOR GLYCOL/WATER and ideal for just plain water. I will prove this with the manufacturers instructions below.
You are free to use this info, and you are also free to ignor it.COOLANT EFFECTS ON PERFORMANCE
Under moderate load conditions, each percent glycol raises cylinder head temperatures by 1°F. 50% glycol raises head temperatures by 45°F. This increase in temperature will raise the octane required for trace knock levels by typically 3.5 octane numbers. A car equipped with a knock sensor will retard the timing to compensate for the increase in octane requirement by approximately 5°, which will reduce the maximum brake torque by about 2.1%. Racing vehicles not equipped with knock sensors can advance timing for increased torque.
Performance Properties of Coolants
Water +
Red Line 50% Glycol 70% Glycol
Increase in Cylinder
Head Temperature Baseline +45° +65°
Increase in Octane
(RON) Requirement Baseline +3.5 +5.0
Change in Spark Timing
for Trace Knock Baseline -5.2° -7.5°
Change in Torque Baseline -2.1% -3.1% USE DIRECTIONS
One 12 ounce bottle treats 12- 16 quarts of water OR A 50% ETHYLENE GLYCOL OR PROPYLENE GLYCOL SOLUTION. In smaller cooling systems, use 4 - 5 caps per quart. Add directly through the cooling system fill cap into the radiator or into the overflow tank. Do not open a cooling system while hot. For best protection for aluminum, replenish or replace every 15,000 miles. The anti-scaling ingredients in Red Line Water Wetter allow its use with ordinary tap water. However, using with distilled or deionized water will accomplish some scale removal in the cylinder head area. For maximum temperature reductions use the most water and the least antifreeze possible to prevent freezing in your climate. Even in summertime the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20% antifreeze is used. Red Line Water Wetter is available in 12 ounce containers.
Hope this info helps!
I post this information to help anyone who might be interested in improving the cooling or heat transfer in their cooling systems. This info might help us to resist overheating in situations where we might need a little extra help, hard snow etc. This stuff works really well for me and I have seen significant reduction in coolant temps on my sleds. WATER WETTER IS RECOMMENDED FOR GLYCOL/WATER and ideal for just plain water. I will prove this with the manufacturers instructions below.
You are free to use this info, and you are also free to ignor it.COOLANT EFFECTS ON PERFORMANCE
Under moderate load conditions, each percent glycol raises cylinder head temperatures by 1°F. 50% glycol raises head temperatures by 45°F. This increase in temperature will raise the octane required for trace knock levels by typically 3.5 octane numbers. A car equipped with a knock sensor will retard the timing to compensate for the increase in octane requirement by approximately 5°, which will reduce the maximum brake torque by about 2.1%. Racing vehicles not equipped with knock sensors can advance timing for increased torque.
Performance Properties of Coolants
Water +
Red Line 50% Glycol 70% Glycol
Increase in Cylinder
Head Temperature Baseline +45° +65°
Increase in Octane
(RON) Requirement Baseline +3.5 +5.0
Change in Spark Timing
for Trace Knock Baseline -5.2° -7.5°
Change in Torque Baseline -2.1% -3.1% USE DIRECTIONS
One 12 ounce bottle treats 12- 16 quarts of water OR A 50% ETHYLENE GLYCOL OR PROPYLENE GLYCOL SOLUTION. In smaller cooling systems, use 4 - 5 caps per quart. Add directly through the cooling system fill cap into the radiator or into the overflow tank. Do not open a cooling system while hot. For best protection for aluminum, replenish or replace every 15,000 miles. The anti-scaling ingredients in Red Line Water Wetter allow its use with ordinary tap water. However, using with distilled or deionized water will accomplish some scale removal in the cylinder head area. For maximum temperature reductions use the most water and the least antifreeze possible to prevent freezing in your climate. Even in summertime the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20% antifreeze is used. Red Line Water Wetter is available in 12 ounce containers.
Hope this info helps!
SuperStroker!
Pro
Welterracer, if you check your collant and find that you have too much antifreeze, you will be stoping more often to kick snow on your heat exchangers.
If you minimize the antifreeze and maximize the water to the maximum for you freeze protection needs and add a few caps of Water Wetter, you may never have to kick snow on your heat exchangers again, GET IT YET?
This is not theory, it is thermodynamics and chemistry fact.
If you minimize the antifreeze and maximize the water to the maximum for you freeze protection needs and add a few caps of Water Wetter, you may never have to kick snow on your heat exchangers again, GET IT YET?
This is not theory, it is thermodynamics and chemistry fact.
SuperStroker!
Pro
Q
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, I saw that, but he was also stressing that its better to run water than adding coolant, and even went as far as saying to add water wetter to water an run that. Not a good thing to do. Yes, adding a mixture to the overflow tank is best, without adding pure coolant. Beyond that, most of the rest of the posts were wrong.
uote:
//
Water is coolant?????? and yes, IF YOU'RE RUNNING IN HOT SUMMER CLIMATES, its is better to run just water and water wetter with a higher pressure radiator cap.
I did not and do not advocate using less glycol that you need for your climate and use.
I DO HOWEVER and I will say it again, RECOMMEND NOT USING MORE ANTIFREEZE (GLYCOL) than you need!
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Yea, I saw that, but he was also stressing that its better to run water than adding coolant, and even went as far as saying to add water wetter to water an run that. Not a good thing to do. Yes, adding a mixture to the overflow tank is best, without adding pure coolant. Beyond that, most of the rest of the posts were wrong.
uote:
//
Water is coolant?????? and yes, IF YOU'RE RUNNING IN HOT SUMMER CLIMATES, its is better to run just water and water wetter with a higher pressure radiator cap.
I did not and do not advocate using less glycol that you need for your climate and use.
I DO HOWEVER and I will say it again, RECOMMEND NOT USING MORE ANTIFREEZE (GLYCOL) than you need!
welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
SuperStroker! said:
I agree... strait water is the best collant.... antifreeze is just that... stuff that keeps the water from freezing..
Alot of guys on another website i go to use Waterwetter...but that is in cars that do not rely on snow getting on there coolers to dissapate the heat!... Im not saying it doesnt help...
