HELP??? Secondary Spring Question...

[SLEDSTART]

I posted this in RX section but maybe some of you guys can help.

Lost some RPM's (500-1000 depending on conditions) and want to know what the life on a secondary spring is?
I have the Simmons set up on it. Black spring...no color marks on it
(2005 RX-1)
used to be at 10,300-10,500 all day long. Now it's 9500 to 10,000

Here is the other thread.

http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0

What is the life of a secondary spring?

Thanks guys!

 

[87gtNOS]

Life could be 1 day.

Try a new spring, clean your clutches.

Also, there's probably a better chance that your primary spring is sacked! I'd look to that first.

 

[SLEDSTART]

I'll order up both. Can't hurt. They have 5000 miles on them. I just never had a spring go bad before...

 

[Yamzilla]

I posted this in RX section but maybe some of you guys can help.

Lost some RPM's (500-1000 depending on conditions) and want to know what the life on a secondary spring is?
I have the Simmons set up on it. Black spring...no color marks on it
(2005 RX-1)
used to be at 10,300-10,500 all day long. Now it's 9500 to 10,000

Here is the other thread.

http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0

What is the life of a secondary spring?

Thanks guys!

Unless you've already done so, be sure to check your primary spring specifications. Pull the primary out and measure the free-standing spring length. As usual check the belt width and how it sets in the secondary. Ditch it after 1/16" wear. The secondary should also have a free-standing specification.

 

[SLEDSTART]

Unless you've already done so, be sure to check your primary spring specifications. Pull the primary out and measure the free-standing spring length. As usual check the belt width and how it sets in the secondary. Ditch it after 1/16" wear. The secondary should also have a free-standing specification.

Ordered both springs today.
I assume you were referring to the belt after 1/16th wear? I usually toss the belt after 2000 miles. I know this sled with it's clutching is hard on them.
How do I know what the specs are on the springs? Measure them when there new and then check them each season?
As far as the belt and how it sits in the secondary...shouldn't it be a shade under the sheave?

Thanks

 

[dburu2]

No ,a shade above the sheaves for more gearing

 

[SLEDSTART]

oh...yeah now that I think about it I think All my yamis have been a shade above. i think I was just thinking the opposite.

 

[SAINTLEN]

HERE WE GO AGAIN,
# 1 THE FIX IS IN YOU DRIVE CLUTCH , GET RID OF THE 2 CYCLE SPRING YAMAHA PUT IN IT. PUT A 4 CYCLE SPRING IN IT.

# 2 CHECK YOU HOLDING RPMS IF TO LOW GRIND THE UNDER SIDE OF YOUR WT. ARMS. START AT TIP AND GRIND BACK TO 3/8" , GO EASY TAKE ONE GRAM OFF WILL RAISE HOLDING RPMS 150.

# 3 IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT GET A PARAGON SECONDARY CLUTCH , VERY USER FRIENDLY.
OR PUT AN A/C SECONDARY ON IT , MUCH BETTER THAN YAMAHA.

# 4 TAKE YOU DRIVE CLUTCH TO A MACHINE SHOP HAVE THEM REMOVE .025 OFF BOTTOM SO YOUR BELT WILL COME TO TOP . THIS WILL ADD 20 + MPH.

HOPE THIS IS SOME HELP, I HAVE BEEN RIDING AND FIXING FOR 35 YEARS.

 

[SLEDSTART]

HERE WE GO AGAIN,
# 1 THE FIX IS IN YOU DRIVE CLUTCH , GET RID OF THE 2 CYCLE SPRING YAMAHA PUT IN IT. PUT A 4 CYCLE SPRING IN IT.

# 2 CHECK YOU HOLDING RPMS IF TO LOW GRIND THE UNDER SIDE OF YOUR WT. ARMS. START AT TIP AND GRIND BACK TO 3/8" , GO EASY TAKE ONE GRAM OFF WILL RAISE HOLDING RPMS 150.

# 3 IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT GET A PARAGON SECONDARY CLUTCH , VERY USER FRIENDLY.
OR PUT AN A/C SECONDARY ON IT , MUCH BETTER THAN YAMAHA.

# 4 TAKE YOU DRIVE CLUTCH TO A MACHINE SHOP HAVE THEM REMOVE .025 OFF BOTTOM SO YOUR BELT WILL COME TO TOP . THIS WILL ADD 20 + MPH.

HOPE THIS IS SOME HELP, I HAVE BEEN RIDING AND FIXING FOR 35 YEARS.

Thanks Saintlen,

But it's gone from bad to worse...and I'm now thinking clutching is NOT the problem now. After taking them off and cleaning them (new springs not in yet) I took it for a spin and it seemed Back to normal (10,500-10,600) Topped it off with fuel...waited for my buddies to fill up...took off and when I stabbed it it ran like a pig...like it was missing BAD. MAYBE 9000 RPM's at most. Idle's smooth as silk.
I really think something is clogging a main jet in one carb. I'm going to pull the rack tomorrow. I might need to pick some brains on what I am doing since I only had the rack off once to change the clip position, the springs and mains. That was a while ago!

20+ MPH by shaving the clutch????
This I would have to see to believe. I'm not saying you lying but thats a LOT of MPH to gain. I'm not so sure I want to start shaving a perfectly good clutch without more info. Your talking about shaving the primary right? I do know a good machine shop guy. Where would this material be removed?

Anyone else seen or done this?

As far as your first comment, The sled IS a 4 stroke...so I'm confused what you mean by "GET RID OF THE 2 CYCLE SPRING YAMAHA PUT IN IT. PUT A 4 CYCLE SPRING IN IT."

If it's a 4 stroke would it not already have the spring your talking about?

As far as your 2nd comment, I am running heavy hitters in it, so I could add or remove weight pretty easy...but the sled was running perfect for the first 5000 miles and the clutching was dead on so why would I need to remove weight all of a sudden? Sled was a rocket. I was eating F1000 by sled lengths.

 

[Yamzilla]

HERE WE GO AGAIN,
# 1 THE FIX IS IN YOU DRIVE CLUTCH , GET RID OF THE 2 CYCLE SPRING YAMAHA PUT IN IT. PUT A 4 CYCLE SPRING IN IT.

# 2 CHECK YOU HOLDING RPMS IF TO LOW GRIND THE UNDER SIDE OF YOUR WT. ARMS. START AT TIP AND GRIND BACK TO 3/8" , GO EASY TAKE ONE GRAM OFF WILL RAISE HOLDING RPMS 150.

# 3 IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT GET A PARAGON SECONDARY CLUTCH , VERY USER FRIENDLY.
OR PUT AN A/C SECONDARY ON IT , MUCH BETTER THAN YAMAHA.

# 4 TAKE YOU DRIVE CLUTCH TO A MACHINE SHOP HAVE THEM REMOVE .025 OFF BOTTOM SO YOUR BELT WILL COME TO TOP . THIS WILL ADD 20 + MPH.

HOPE THIS IS SOME HELP, I HAVE BEEN RIDING AND FIXING FOR 35 YEARS.

Thanks Saintlen,

But it's gone from bad to worse...and I'm now thinking clutching is NOT the problem now. After taking them off and cleaning them (new springs not in yet) I took it for a spin and it seemed Back to normal (10,500-10,600) Topped it off with fuel...waited for my buddies to fill up...took off and when I stabbed it it ran like a pig...like it was missing BAD. MAYBE 9000 RPM's at most. Idle's smooth as silk.
I really think something is clogging a main jet in one carb. I'm going to pull the rack tomorrow. I might need to pick some brains on what I am doing since I only had the rack off once to change the clip position, the springs and mains. That was a while ago!

20+ MPH by shaving the clutch????
This I would have to see to believe. I'm not saying you lying but thats a LOT of MPH to gain. I'm not so sure I want to start shaving a perfectly good clutch without more info. Your talking about shaving the primary right? I do know a good machine shop guy. Where would this material be removed?

Anyone else seen or done this?

As far as your first comment, The sled IS a 4 stroke...so I'm confused what you mean by "GET RID OF THE 2 CYCLE SPRING YAMAHA PUT IN IT. PUT A 4 CYCLE SPRING IN IT."

If it's a 4 stroke would it not already have the spring your talking about?

As far as your 2nd comment, I am running heavy hitters in it, so I could add or remove weight pretty easy...but the sled was running perfect for the first 5000 miles and the clutching was dead on so why would I need to remove weight all of a sudden? Sled was a rocket. I was eating F1000 by sled lengths.

I think what he might be referring to is run a soft primary spring because we have so much 4-Stroke torque and torque feedback to the secondary that there is really no need for such high engagement. Plus with high compression primary springs more weight is needed detracting from your efficiency. Also if you go overdrive there's more to milling the primary...secondary helix will need to be milled and watch out for coil binding. And 20mph...that might be stretching it a bit.

 

[SLEDSTART]

Thanks Yamzilla. I am fairly new to clutching. So I don't really have the knowledge to "fine tune"
I set the sled up with Simmons stuff and just did what he said and the sled rean fantastic. it was like night and day. I'm sure it could be fine tuned more...but I like to understand what I am doing before I jump into it.

If I go with a softer primary spring, A) what spring do I need? There is like 40 springs listed on Yami's film and B) do I need to change anything else in the primary or secondary? Will this simply be lowering my engagement RPM? What am I gaining by doing this? Hole shot on the sled seems fantastic (when it was running right) and yeah it engaged a little high but it's smooth and it also seemed like it did that stock too.

 

[SAINTLEN]

CLUTCHING AND SPRINGS

OK, I JUST FOUND THIS SITE YESTERDAY.
SOMEONE TOLD ME ABOUT IT, I AM JUST NOT INTO COMPUTER SEARCHING.

2 CYCLE MOTORS NEED TO REV UP TO AN RPM THAT WILL LET THE POWER COME ON WITH OUT BOGGING THE MOTOR DOWN.

4 CYCLE MOTORS , LIKE THE ONE IN CARS HAVE NO NEED TO REV UP , BECAUSE THE POWER STARTS AT (0) .

DO NOT THING SO.? TAKE THE SPRING OUT OF YOUR DRIVE CLUTCH, PUT BELT AND COVER ON AND DRIVE IT. YOU WILL SE WHAT I MEAN. JUST BE READY TO USE THE BRAKE ON START UP AND STOPPING , BECAUSE WITH OUT THE SPRING ITS LIKE TAKING YOU FOOT OFF THE BRAKE IN YOUR CAR THE CAR WANT TO GO, BECAUSE THE POWER IS ON ALL THE TIME. THE ONLY CHANGE IS HOW MUCH GAS YOU GIVE IT.

YAMAHA , DID NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT THE CLUTCH, THEY DID NOT THINK 2CYCLE AND 4 CYCLE.

NOW, WHAT SPRING TO USE AND WHERE TO GET IT.

THE PLACE WE GOT OURS WAS AT LENNON'S POWER EQUIPMENT IN UP STATE NEW.
THEIR E-MAIL ADDRESS IS LENNONSPOWEREQUIPMENT@HOTMAIL.COM.

I DID NOT THINK IT WOULD WORK UNTIL I TRIED THE ON SPRING THING.

AS FOR THE .025 OFF THE CLUTCH. TAKE THE SPRING OUTOF YOUR CLUTCH. CLOSE IT UP AND THEN PUT YOUR BELT ON , SEE HOW FAR DOWN IT SETS.

HOPE THIS HELPS

 

[SLEDSTART]

.025 is removed form the Primary or secondary?

Anyone else have any input on this and what would need to be done to dial clutching back in? I was really happy with how it ran before my current problem, But if I just find a clogged main no biggie.

I would like to gain some top end. I can walk all over my buddies cats out of the whole so bad that they cant catch up unless its a few mile long stretch. They will get me on top end...=(

 

[ROCKRTX]

1- were is your rpm now? it should be between 10500 and 10800 rpm.

2-Don't cut your clutch,you will loose efficiency.best efficiency of a cvt clutch is at 1:1 ratio,overdrive is not efficient.Yamaha clutch with helix machine for overdrive give 0.93 to 0.90:1 overdrive,that is good enough.

3-If you are new to clutching,take 20$ and buy THE AEEN CLUTCH TUNNING BOOK,read it 20 time,put it under your pillow.knowing how it work will help you gain performance in your clutch.

4-Different Clutching will make your sled faster from 0 to 100 mph,but no gain on top end.

Thing you can do to make your sled faster is:ad HP to the motor,adjust your suspension it can turn more free,put studs ( track spin is slow ).

 

[SLEDSTART]

ROCKRTX,
before I was having problems it was running around 10,400-10,600 so I think I was in the ballpark. Last season Matt from the speedshop where I bought it said I could replace a few washers in the heavy hitters with lighter ones and gain a few R's but I never did it and I don't remember what washers in the clutch he said to replace with what washers in the kit. I'm guess ing if I remove some tip weight I would gain some RPM's right? I'm sure I can mess with the washers and get the R's up a bit.

Thats not my biggest worry right now. I need to get it running right then maybe mess with the clutch a bit. I'm heading out to clean my carbs right now...because it won't run worth a crap when I stab it!

Sled is picked, I had anti ratchet drivers put in since I had a warranty issue with the track so I do run it pretty loose and I replace bearings in the skid as needed. I sucked the limiter strap up one notch and other than that, thats it. It's great out on the hole and midrange but I think I lost some top end. I know I didn't gain any thats for sure.

I will look into picking up that book on clutching. I think someone else mentioned it to me once before. I'l have to check it out.