Laban
Extreme
rockrider said:
The Apex engine can handle 260+ hp with a Turbo with no major changes to the engine, i'd call that pretty durable. The phazer Turbo kit gives you 140 hp.
So why would there be a problem with a 750 cc triple, 130hp@12000 rpm ?
Vmax540
Expert
Octane said:
I agree ! 120Hp in that chassis would be too much for anywhere except the mountains ! Besides Yamaha has 80 and 120Hp sleds lets see a 100Hp version to keep the weight, cost and Vibrations down ?
cdnredline
Veteran
I'm guessing a 130hp fuel injected version of the Vector engine in something that looks like a Phazer. This engine was new just 3 years ago and Yamaha's accounting department will not have an unlimited open budget for the snowmobile division (4 new sled engines in in 6 years would be a bit much).
Also, why does everyone feel that a big twin (ie 900cc) would be that much smaller than a triple. The overall size is maybe 10% larger (not 33% as some people think) and when you have to figure in some weight for a counter balancer on the twin. If it is a lower displacement, higher reving engine you still ad back some weight for a gear reduction.
Speaking of gear reduction - do you really think that Yamaha is going to build something that may be accepted by the ISR. Given this bodies structure and previous history there is now way that Yamaha can change any rules. They will be basing their future on the rules for 2008 as they are have been stated for the past couple of seasons. Even a large company needs at least 2 full years to bring something to production (which is what the stock class is).
One more thing, I think that Cat purposely had Suzuki build their new 4 stroke a few cc's too big for the current ISR rules so that no one would try to race it. It's not a race engine and may not even survive if it was modified for the open class.
Also, why does everyone feel that a big twin (ie 900cc) would be that much smaller than a triple. The overall size is maybe 10% larger (not 33% as some people think) and when you have to figure in some weight for a counter balancer on the twin. If it is a lower displacement, higher reving engine you still ad back some weight for a gear reduction.
Speaking of gear reduction - do you really think that Yamaha is going to build something that may be accepted by the ISR. Given this bodies structure and previous history there is now way that Yamaha can change any rules. They will be basing their future on the rules for 2008 as they are have been stated for the past couple of seasons. Even a large company needs at least 2 full years to bring something to production (which is what the stock class is).
One more thing, I think that Cat purposely had Suzuki build their new 4 stroke a few cc's too big for the current ISR rules so that no one would try to race it. It's not a race engine and may not even survive if it was modified for the open class.
received the yamaha horizon newsletter and the way theyre talking in there we havent seen nothing yet in four stroke technology so i wouldnt be suprised to see a new engine from yamaha,maybe more than one in the next couple years
cdnredline
Veteran
One more thought - this class of machine is priced about 30% higher than the Phazers and certainly would have little net cost difference if the big motor was just dropped in the PZ chassis. Of course this isn't the plan as they would need to improve the the chassis strength and in doing so could they could use much lighter (read more expensive) materials and maybe even lose some chassis weight. Enough to ofset the heavier engine - yes, I think it's very possible.
Just keep an eye on what Robbie's racing and we'll see what's going to be announced later this winter.
Just keep an eye on what Robbie's racing and we'll see what's going to be announced later this winter.
Laban
Extreme
cdnredline said:
The RS engine will probably continue to live on, but only for the Venture, Viking models.
The current rules have imo been tailormade for the RS engine. 1050 cc limit, no gear reduction, and the fact the the RS engine is:
1: one of two currently available fourstroke engine that's suitable for racing. The other being the Apex engine.
2: from the only manufacturer that uses fourstroke engines for racing.
3: is in the same hp range as the 600cc engines that's allowed for two-strokes.
So why not make an addition that allows for gear-reduction and a lower max cc ?
Shouldn't be that hard to figure out what that limit should be, i would guess around 800cc.
morrisond
Expert
If you actually read the rules, people would realize that the Cat Motor is already allowed. What they state is that every new 4 stroke design has to be approved. Currently the Vector and Jag engines are approved and it specifically mentioned that new "configurations" - i.e. Gear reduction will be allowed but have to be submitted for approval.
If Yamaha wants to be competitive in Snocross the Vector Engine won't cut it, too heavy and not high enough specific output. It doesn't have the RPM capability of more modern designs. 4 Strokes need REVS to make power. The problem with the Vector engine is that even if they could get it REV to 10,000 they would lose all there clutch efficiency.
An 750-800 Gear Reduced Triple in full mod form could be built to make way more power as you could rev it a 15,000 rpm plus easily.
Yamaha may race the Vector motor but they will never win with it.
If Yamaha wants to be competitive in Snocross the Vector Engine won't cut it, too heavy and not high enough specific output. It doesn't have the RPM capability of more modern designs. 4 Strokes need REVS to make power. The problem with the Vector engine is that even if they could get it REV to 10,000 they would lose all there clutch efficiency.
An 750-800 Gear Reduced Triple in full mod form could be built to make way more power as you could rev it a 15,000 rpm plus easily.
Yamaha may race the Vector motor but they will never win with it.
Laban
Extreme
morrisond said:
I agree. A 750-800cc Phazer/Apex like triple would shave probably shave 20+ lbs of weight compared to the Vector engine and i think that's necessary if they want to compete in the top. Just the fact that the Vector engine weighs pretty much the same as the four-cylinder Apex engine speak volumes about that.
Or a Turbo but i doubt that we'll see Turbo's allowed in racing anytime soon.
Kråkan
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
According to a snowmobile mag in sweden the Nytro is only 8kg lighter than the Apex GT, with all fluids in it except gas they weigh 260/268kg. This speaks against the Vector motor in racing, talking about horse power I dont think there will bee ANY problem at all.
Fredrik Granberg Rode a vector race sled last year here in sweden and he got the start alot of times (AGAINST 800 2strokers!!!) There was app 150hp in that thing and overall it was as light as the Rev 800 Racingsled, The durability was not good because they had lightened it extremely much and it looked noseheavy. So the weight of the Vector motor is more of an issue than the power i think!!! I hope there will be a new sled next year so I can buy one
But first im hoping for a great winter with alot of snowmobiling on my (Nytro)
Fredrik Granberg Rode a vector race sled last year here in sweden and he got the start alot of times (AGAINST 800 2strokers!!!) There was app 150hp in that thing and overall it was as light as the Rev 800 Racingsled, The durability was not good because they had lightened it extremely much and it looked noseheavy. So the weight of the Vector motor is more of an issue than the power i think!!! I hope there will be a new sled next year so I can buy one
But first im hoping for a great winter with alot of snowmobiling on my (Nytro)
I think far too many people are passing judgement on the Vector motor based on the performance of the brand new open mod sled at Duluth. I think we should wait and see how the sled does after they get some time and experience with it. I don't think the Vector motor is a disadvantage, but it will require different set-ups and riding styles than the two stroke sleds.
getchuk
Extreme
According to malinoski it has the nytro has the power its other issues.
http://www.slednews.com/cip/index.cfm/m ... 90,0,0,0,1
http://www.slednews.com/cip/index.cfm/m ... 90,0,0,0,1
morrisond
Expert
If they are using the stock engine as they state on the article, that makes me believe even more that isn't the engine they will be racing long term. Stock means that they didn't want to put much effort or resources into it as something better is coming!
120-130 Hp in Open Class just won't cut it.
120-130 Hp in Open Class just won't cut it.
HAIRTRIGGER RACING
Newbie
How about 3 250f put together
morrisond
Expert
HAIRTRIGGER RACING said:
Yes, most likely if it is a new design. Read previous posts.
HAIRTRIGGER RACING
Newbie
Most likely if it's new it will be something lame like a retooled nitro motor
