new headgasket no start

[idahorider]

Hey guys
just installed a new headgasket on my apex and cannot get it to fire. timing marks are in sync and it rolled over fine by hand. Hit the button and sounds like starter motor isnt engaging,but its spinning the motor just sounds off. No start not even a sputter.
A mechanic friend says sounds like timing. if my marks are all in sync can it still be off?
Manual says set cylinder four to TDC on compression stroke and disassemble. only reason i can see for this is there is less pressure on cams at this point? once the cams are out the bottom end doesn't know what stroke it's on. put it back together with cylinder four at tdc and set mag and cam timing marks.
What could i be missing?
I did pull off the clutch side case cover as i dropped part of a zip ty into the cam chain well. I noticed the countershaft assembly trying to come out with the case. it has a little play in it. behind it is the oil pump drive sprocket and chain. Could i have buggered up something here that would cause this.
Thanks

 

[kinger]

Its getting fuel, spark, and air? I know sounds simple but it shoudl run even if the timing is off it will just run like crap and you'll need to tear it down again.

Is it getting fuel?

 

[YamerHammer]

My guess is that when you put the head back on you have a couple of valve shims that aren't seated.....do a compression test and that will tell you the story. I always do a vavle clearence check when reinstalling the head. This has happen to me and I had the sled all put back together......lesson learned. Also do not spin the engine backwards this will give you false timing readings(Never Rotate backwards). Rotate the engine atleast two time by hand really slow. You might have already bent some vavles. Take throttle body's off and look in there to see if you can tell if they are bent first off. If there is anything I can do to help ask away.

 

[idahorider]

i pulled it apart again. and am going to re time it although i don't know why. After i tried to start it i pulled the valve cover off and timing marks were still good. I doubt i bent anything as i turned it over many times by hand to make sure the cam chain took up the slack in the chain and had no binding ar hard spots at all and no bad noises when i had the starter going. still spins fine by hand.
I am wondering if the ignition timing is off because i spun it over while cams were out but set timing with cylinder four at TDC as the shop manual says.
Correct me if im wrong but the bottom end does not know what stroke it is on if the cams are out. It just goes up and down. I could see a problem if it took ignition timing from the crank somehow but these engines have a cam sensor.
Fuel pump was cycling and had no intercooler on the throttle bodys when i tried starting it so i assume it was getting air. Will check spark when i get it back together.
anybody else?

 

[juwalantz]

Ya check spark. And try new plugs. They are cheap.

 

[juwalantz]

Oh ya make shure your timing mark is right on the crank. (magneeto). There are a few marks on mine and I had to look in my service manual to find out which one was right.

 

[YamerHammer]

Make sure when you are checking the timing that the timing marks on the mag that you are not lining up the right mark......it's not the line with the conecting line it is the highest one so to speak.....as long as you have that line on the mag and the cam marks on it will be fine as far as timing goes.....check your vavle clearences just in case though since you have the vavle cover off.

 

[FLYBYU]

Like others had said, set cam timing with magneto site window. Your probably 180 degrees off. Yes you might be tdc but what stroke is it on. Intake or exhaust

 

[RED]

My guess is your 180 off. Had samething happen to me once on a RX1.

 

[idahorider]

no start

Hey everyone
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around being 180 off.
The bottom end only goes up & down,its all compression strokes unless there's an intake or exhaust valve open. Valve train decides the stroke. If I'm on my marks how can it be off? Can anyone make light of this for me.Yes I have correct mark on mag and cams and lobes are facing away from each other. If its off is it the ignition timing that's off really?

 

[RED]

I dont have any answer for you. I always thought the camshaft was the boss. It decides like you said. Until I came to this engine. I had the marks lined up timing pointer, the dots on the camshafts lined up. Put all back together, engine just turned over. Was doing this @ local yami dealership. They were doing 4 turbo installs @ the time, was helping them out. We looked @ it, decide must be out. Took the cam sprocets off, took cams out just to make sure the shims were all in place. Put it all back together, but turned it 180 more. Engine came to life, Im still confused about this 7yrs later.

 

[FLYBYU]

Plugs wet? No ignition? Got spark? Cam timing marks? Sprocket timing marks. Everything has to be in time

 

[idahorider]

no start

Fuel,spark,timing marks.....YES
Taking it to dealer tomorrow.Will let ya know

 

[idahorider]

update

Got it figured out, kinda.
Checked valve clearances before taking it to dealer found some super tight.
I did not check originally as the valves were not disassembled and the machine has 1100 miles.
Dealer confirms and does a valve adjustment and it starts. He says he has never seen anything like it. Some were so tight that he couldnt get a feeler in to check. Basically did a 20 valve adjustment from scratch. All the shims that came out were close to each other but the ones that were off were way off. He cannot offer an explanation.
The valve train was left intact for the headgasket change and it ran fine before. Remember it only has 1100 miles.
He said timing and everything else was correct. I ask can i have caused this somehow? He say's, don't see how.
Anybody offer an explanation?

 

[mbarryracing]

Which ones were tight? Any pattern?
Maybe when you re-installed the head it distorted something?