Primary clutch exploded

[KnappAttack]

Wow,thats an awesome price,is that price for anyone? I just got my ultimax xs825 you suggested and my daltons only have one ride on them,just thinking out loud,nice pics of your lake and trails. So what do you think the total cost may be Dan? Clutch,dalton ramps,and new belt? I did look up that clutch,but don't know if its 33 taper or 30 taper,and what dia. is it 8.0 inch.

You'd need the Team clutch, new weights, new spring, new puller, new belt, and some secondary machining for the wider Cat belt. Nice part is zero belt deflection and wider belt for more OD too.

Info here.
https://ty4stroke.com/threads/team-primary-on-winder-secondary-mocked-up.155023/

 

[Crossfire12]

Geez, the money some people throw at these things is insane. Fat chance I'm trading up to any other clutch. I haven't had any issues running the most power I can get on pump gas(270ish) even though I know the clutch isn't designed for that much power. I can only get a couple thousand miles on in a season, so I'll take my chances on it blowing apart which is very unlikely. The clutch in the picture that started this thread had 7300 miles on it, the roller is missing and it was aftermarket.
I'd rather put money towards trading more often or taking my bride out for dinner.

Your right as long as you don’t ride hard on a $18000.00 sled you should be alright, you put a tune in $400.00,$220 clutch weights, should have left it stock. OR buy one with 130 hp, put nothing in it then take the wife out.

 

[Fast]

I have not seen one TEAM yet afer recall.....show me one please. Been asking for months, not one on HCS and many are tuned, no issues. Certainly far better then YAM primary which rattle,kill rollers, and you have shown blow apart.

Thanks
Dan

The rattle has nothing to do with the clutch it's the way the 3 cylinder fires causing harmonics I bet the cat clutch will rattle to

 

[74Nitro]

Your right as long as you don’t ride hard on a $18000.00 sled you should be alright, you put a tune in $400.00,$220 clutch weights, should have left it stock. OR buy one with 130 hp, put nothing in it then take the wife out.

Ya, I drive slow.
Very slow.

 

[NYTurbo]

Cat clutch doesn't rattle, at least I haven't heard one that does and ive seen/listened to some well south of 6000 miles that have never been touched.

 

[74Nitro]

I'd guess thats the problem here. Worn rollers and those shorter than most, Heavy Hitters rolled right past the worn out rollers and bang, ripped them right out of the clutch as it was fully shifted out. Every one I've seen broke has had these HH weights in them.

The clutch did not completely explode though, which is good. I don't see this as a Yamaha clutch problem, other than the worn out bushings. The HH arms are just shorter than they probably should be. Fine with good rollers, but worn out bushings and they roll right off the roller. Set them side by side with most any other brand weight and you'll see how much shorter they are.

Mike, the rollers were aftermarket as well. I know the Yamaha rollers will eventually wear out also, but this particular clutch, as per redmach's above post, wasn't running Yamaha rollers.

 

[sideshowBob]

Is the Team primary clutch the same diameter as the SW primary?
I sure like the idea of the ability to run a 1.5" belt

 

[TPAY243]

For those that are thinking about switching to the Team clutching wouldn't the easy way be just getting primary, secondary, and shaft from the ZR 9000 and switching over to the Sidewinder. My Viper clutching seems to be holding up but, it is only 200 hp tho.

 

[KnappAttack]

For those that are thinking about switching to the Team clutching wouldn't the easy way be just getting primary, secondary, and shaft from the ZR 9000 and switching over to the Sidewinder. My Viper clutching seems to be holding up but, it is only 200 hp tho.

No, the easy and cheaper way is to use the Winder secondary with a little machining for full shift of it. Allowing the Helix to travel about .065" more than what a Dalton helix travels on it stock. I've already mocked it up on my sled for fitment lining it up at full shift and using the 1.5" Cat belts over the Yamaha primary and 8JP or 8DN.

Using the Team primary will allow for a lower take off ratio and a higher OD both using the 1.5" Cat belts. As a plus the Team does not rattle.

https://ty4stroke.com/threads/team-primary-on-winder-secondary-mocked-up.155023/



I'll paste it here for easy access...



Well it can be done and rather nicely I might add. Just as I figured, the driven needs spaced out more than the Yamaha primary for the 1.5" Cat belt and wider Team stationary sheave, and either the helix or hub will need machined on the secondary to allow more secondary helix/movable travel allowing the wider Cat belt the extra width it needs. Also will need a spring with less coils to prevent spring bind in that secondary too. I will be using Cat secondary springs in the Winder driven so all will be fine for that either way.

For mockup I added .062" washers behind a DALTON helix, this just gives the secondary/helix just enough extra travel for the wider belt when thru OD at rest and not under power. I wouldn't run it this way with shims as the rollers don't even touch the helix at all, but for mockup its fine.

Angle on both the 8JP and the Cat 104 belt both used is the same as per my angle finder. The Yamaha 8JP runs at 7.95" on the Yamaha Primary and the 104 rides at 8.375" on the Cat/Team Primary, both at full OD. Yamaha clutch weighs #10 and the Team is just shy of #12. IMO the 998 needs a heavier drive clutch for flywheel effect, maybe thats why the Team makes no noise like the rattling box of bolts Yamaha drive clutch, I don't know. For certain the Team is clearanced tighter on the buttons, has no play on the rollers and weights, and is cushioned much better than the Yamaha primary with its weight bolts.

I set offset at full OD for now and the nice part is you don't have to worry about shimming the belt deflection as it will tighten the belt right up for zero deflection using the bearing on the team primary as it does on the Cat. So zero worry about deflection at idle which will be nice.

Cons? Well slightly higher belt costs, but can use Carlisle XS 827 Cat belt which is working so very well for the Cat guys. Need to buy all new weights, springs, and another new puller.

Pros, don't know for certain as I haven't run it yet, but presumed pros for certain are fiddle string tight belt deflection. Wider belt has more shift ratio from low to high & stonger tensile strength on wider belt. Will mean lower takeoff gear at start and more OD at finish. Wider rollers by 50% SHOULD mean more roller life vs. Yamaha primary. NO clutch rattle on the Team vs the Yamaha. Don't have to machine the secondary, just add an actual bit of shim to align properly.

Is it for everyone? No, I don't even know if they'll be any gains to be had, but I like to try everything for myself. I know the rollers are not lasting on the Yamaha clutch and it rattles like a SOB which I hate. I'm not even certain that I will run it yet, but I at least know it will work if I want to run it.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Wow,thats an awesome price,is that price for anyone? I just got my ultimax xs825 you suggested and my daltons only have one ride on them,just thinking out loud,nice pics of your lake and trails. So what do you think the total cost may be Dan? Clutch,dalton ramps,and new belt? I did look up that clutch,but don't know if its 33 taper or 30 taper,and what dia. is it 8.0 inch.

There is this thing called Google, its amazing! LOL. Just messin with ya Pete.

I just got my offset lowered, and a new WARRANTY belt from TIMKEN. So in August I made the decision, and for me I felt I would give the warranty belt and lowered offset one last try. I did not know how many YAM clutches were out there having issues, so maybe that would have swayed me more back then. And I still have two 8DNs and two 8JPs so I just feel like I have alot belts I can use up first.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

The rattle has nothing to do with the clutch it's the way the 3 cylinder fires causing harmonics I bet the cat clutch will rattle to

Nope they dont rattle...

And lets be clear here, the harmonics are dampened by MORE WEIGHT on the crank. This is why Daves stub shaft quiets the YAM clutch.

Isnt it ironic that the TEAM clutch weighs 2lbs more then YAM clutch?

So the weight of the TEAM helps reduce harmonics, and also the MUCH wider roller design and internals are tighter. But for the most part, its the extra weight.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

No, the easy and cheaper way is to use the Winder secondary with a little machining for full shift of it. Allowing the Helix to travel about .065" more than what a Dalton helix travels on it stock. I've already mocked it up on my sled for fitment lining it up at full shift and using the 1.5" Cat belts over the Yamaha primary and 8JP or 8DN.

Using the Team primary will allow for a lower take off ratio and a higher OD both using the 1.5" Cat belts. As a plus the Team does not rattle.

https://ty4stroke.com/threads/team-primary-on-winder-secondary-mocked-up.155023/



I'll paste it here for easy access...



Well it can be done and rather nicely I might add. Just as I figured, the driven needs spaced out more than the Yamaha primary for the 1.5" Cat belt and wider Team stationary sheave, and either the helix or hub will need machined on the secondary to allow more secondary helix/movable travel allowing the wider Cat belt the extra width it needs. Also will need a spring with less coils to prevent spring bind in that secondary too. I will be using Cat secondary springs in the Winder driven so all will be fine for that either way.

For mockup I added .062" washers behind a DALTON helix, this just gives the secondary/helix just enough extra travel for the wider belt when thru OD at rest and not under power. I wouldn't run it this way with shims as the rollers don't even touch the helix at all, but for mockup its fine.

Angle on both the 8JP and the Cat 104 belt both used is the same as per my angle finder. The Yamaha 8JP runs at 7.95" on the Yamaha Primary and the 104 rides at 8.375" on the Cat/Team Primary, both at full OD. Yamaha clutch weighs #10 and the Team is just shy of #12. IMO the 998 needs a heavier drive clutch for flywheel effect, maybe thats why the Team makes no noise like the rattling box of bolts Yamaha drive clutch, I don't know. For certain the Team is clearanced tighter on the buttons, has no play on the rollers and weights, and is cushioned much better than the Yamaha primary with its weight bolts.

I set offset at full OD for now and the nice part is you don't have to worry about shimming the belt deflection as it will tighten the belt right up for zero deflection using the bearing on the team primary as it does on the Cat. So zero worry about deflection at idle which will be nice.

Cons? Well slightly higher belt costs, but can use Carlisle XS 827 Cat belt which is working so very well for the Cat guys. Need to buy all new weights, springs, and another new puller.

Pros, don't know for certain as I haven't run it yet, but presumed pros for certain are fiddle string tight belt deflection. Wider belt has more shift ratio from low to high & stonger tensile strength on wider belt. Will mean lower takeoff gear at start and more OD at finish. Wider rollers by 50% SHOULD mean more roller life vs. Yamaha primary. NO clutch rattle on the Team vs the Yamaha. Don't have to machine the secondary, just add an actual bit of shim to align properly.

Is it for everyone? No, I don't even know if they'll be any gains to be had, but I like to try everything for myself. I know the rollers are not lasting on the Yamaha clutch and it rattles like a SOB which I hate. I'm not even certain that I will run it yet, but I at least know it will work if I want to run it.

Also Mike for those that have not been following this subject that you and I have been talking about since last season, The CATs work well stock, and tuned many of them convert the TEAM SECONDARY to a torsional through Ron Ward. This makes the Cats run cooler then the stock team compression secondary.

So rather then buying a CAT Jshaft, and CAT secondary.....why not use out very nice torsional roller secondary we already own. As Mike said some machining for the wider belt during this mockup, but doable.

I just am holding off til next season at this point now, I hemmed and hawed in August when I got my pricing for TEAM and didn't get my 'good pricing' til much later in Nov or so, after i decided to go with the stocker and use up all my belts.

If I keep this sled though, at this point in time its looking like a TEAM for next yr. But heck a thousand things could change in the next 3 months..lol

Dan

 

[journeyman]

No, the easy and cheaper way is to use the Winder secondary with a little machining for full shift of it. Allowing the Helix to travel about .065" more than what a Dalton helix travels on it stock. I've already mocked it up on my sled for fitment lining it up at full shift and using the 1.5" Cat belts over the Yamaha primary and 8JP or 8DN.

Using the Team primary will allow for a lower take off ratio and a higher OD both using the 1.5" Cat belts. As a plus the Team does not rattle.

https://ty4stroke.com/threads/team-primary-on-winder-secondary-mocked-up.155023/



I'll paste it here for easy access...



Well it can be done and rather nicely I might add. Just as I figured, the driven needs spaced out more than the Yamaha primary for the 1.5" Cat belt and wider Team stationary sheave, and either the helix or hub will need machined on the secondary to allow more secondary helix/movable travel allowing the wider Cat belt the extra width it needs. Also will need a spring with less coils to prevent spring bind in that secondary too. I will be using Cat secondary springs in the Winder driven so all will be fine for that either way.

For mockup I added .062" washers behind a DALTON helix, this just gives the secondary/helix just enough extra travel for the wider belt when thru OD at rest and not under power. I wouldn't run it this way with shims as the rollers don't even touch the helix at all, but for mockup its fine.

Angle on both the 8JP and the Cat 104 belt both used is the same as per my angle finder. The Yamaha 8JP runs at 7.95" on the Yamaha Primary and the 104 rides at 8.375" on the Cat/Team Primary, both at full OD. Yamaha clutch weighs #10 and the Team is just shy of #12. IMO the 998 needs a heavier drive clutch for flywheel effect, maybe thats why the Team makes no noise like the rattling box of bolts Yamaha drive clutch, I don't know. For certain the Team is clearanced tighter on the buttons, has no play on the rollers and weights, and is cushioned much better than the Yamaha primary with its weight bolts.

I set offset at full OD for now and the nice part is you don't have to worry about shimming the belt deflection as it will tighten the belt right up for zero deflection using the bearing on the team primary as it does on the Cat. So zero worry about deflection at idle which will be nice.

Cons? Well slightly higher belt costs, but can use Carlisle XS 827 Cat belt which is working so very well for the Cat guys. Need to buy all new weights, springs, and another new puller.

Pros, don't know for certain as I haven't run it yet, but presumed pros for certain are fiddle string tight belt deflection. Wider belt has more shift ratio from low to high & stonger tensile strength on wider belt. Will mean lower takeoff gear at start and more OD at finish. Wider rollers by 50% SHOULD mean more roller life vs. Yamaha primary. NO clutch rattle on the Team vs the Yamaha. Don't have to machine the secondary, just add an actual bit of shim to align properly.

Is it for everyone? No, I don't even know if they'll be any gains to be had, but I like to try everything for myself. I know the rollers are not lasting on the Yamaha clutch and it rattles like a SOB which I hate. I'm not even certain that I will run it yet, but I at least know it will work if I want to run it.

Very curious to see how this works out Mike. If I don't read it here Miller will keep me posted.

As for the Cat secondary and jackshaft, is Cat still using a keyed shaft? If so I have never liked that in any application that has some serious torque. The splined jackshaft just makes sense keeping the load equal around the shaft.

 

[Srxspec]

Apex 8.25
Winder just shy of 9
I think the Winder sheave angles are 13.5 vs the Apex at 14.5

Sidewinder moveable sheave 8.53" and the stationary sheave is 8.27", sheave angle 13.5*

Apex/Nytro/Viper clutch moveable sheave is 8.30" and the stationary sheave is 8.25", sheave angle 13.5*

 

[snowbeast]

There is this thing called Google, its amazing! LOL. Just messin with ya Pete.

I just got my offset lowered, and a new WARRANTY belt from TIMKEN. So in August I made the decision, and for me I felt I would give the warranty belt and lowered offset one last try. I did not know how many YAM clutches were out there having issues, so maybe that would have swayed me more back then. And I still have two 8DNs and two 8JPs so I just feel like I have alot belts I can use up first.

Dan

Yes agree on the extra belts Dan,ya I hoped you were messing with me lol.. I did do a search and found the new team clutch,but it may of been both Atv clutch and snowmobile clutchs,reason I asked is they must have different 33 degree taper for 4- wheeler,and 30 degree taper for sleds,again thanks for all the pics and vids you share. Cheers