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Real World 1500 Mile Low Down of new Ski Doo XR-S 900 Turbo vs. SideWinder

The last 2018 apex sure was the absolute best apex built. Loved the tech that went into that sled. It got overshadowed huge by the overhyped viper. I tried to find an anniversary apex but they were so scarce with few built. Yamaha if you have the ability to build us a decent chassis from japan please give us that 160hp segment back.
 

ClutchMaster said:
900t has a LONG WAY TO GO to be compared to an Apex as far as reliability is concerned.

The 2 stroke market figured out? Really? They are junk, they have used false claims and magazine propaganda too advance the 850 2 strokes.

With the technology available today it’s absolutely possible to produce big bore two strokes that last over 10k miles.

Poor manufacturing tolerances and cheap electronic engine management systems are more than likely to blame for the failures, but that’s just a hunch.

What they have figured out is how to Buffalo people into thinking a snowmobile should only last 4K~5k miles.
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A consumer wants to buy a new 150-165 hp 4s sled only 1 choice and it is the Doo 90ot. Poo, Yamaha, AC got nothin for ya. As I said Doo wins by default nothing to compete with the 900t and the 900t has a good reliability record so far same as NA Ace. Apex won’t keep going forever and buyers only have 1 choice and that is Doo so they can keep repairing their Apex or buy a new Doo that’s the facts of the market currently. A consumer can’t buy what’s not available sad but true. Apex was a great sled but stators and exup header pipes are failing with time and big miles and too expensive to buy parts and fix. Sure Yamaha can address the Apex market with or without Textron but the facts are Yamaha has nothing to replace the Apex so far so Doo wins the niche. Imo all snowmobile 2s engines suck are junk and don’t interest me as a big mile trail rider but Doo is selling what the 2s consumer wants and those buyers accept the 2s limitations. Sure 2s engine technologies can always be improved but again Yamaha has nothing to offer no 2s engines from Japan. The facts are Yamaha needs to offer new products to compete address all model niches or they are going to shut down just not enough market share to keep going. It’s not too late but the clock is ticking.
 
whitedust1 said:
A consumer wants to buy a new 150-165 hp 4s sled only 1 choice and it is the Doo 90ot. Poo, Yamaha, AC got nothin for ya. As I said Doo wins by default nothing to compete with the 900t and the 900t has a good reliability record so far same as NA Ace. Apex won’t keep going forever and buyers only have 1 choice and that is Doo so they can keep repairing their Apex or buy a new Doo that’s the facts of the market currently. A consumer can’t buy what’s not available sad but true. Apex was a great sled but stators and exup header pipes are failing with time and big miles and too expensive to buy parts and fix. Sure Yamaha can address the Apex market with or without Textron but the facts are Yamaha has nothing to replace the Apex so far so Doo wins the niche. Imo all snowmobile 2s engines suck are junk and don’t interest me as a big mile trail rider but Doo is selling what the 2s consumer wants and those buyers accept the 2s limitations. Sure 2s engine technologies can always be improved but again Yamaha has nothing to offer no 2s engines from Japan. The facts are Yamaha needs to offer new products to compete address all model niches or they are going to shut down just not enough market share to keep going. It’s not too late but the clock is ticking.
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I don't think Yamaha has any interest in filling all the market 'niches'. It may even be too late for the Viper even if it did become 160hp. It should have been that way years ago. The only reason a 155-165hp class exists is because that is the maximum an 800 or 850 can produce. Manufacturers have had trouble with twins that are larger than that.
The trend is always up, has been for decades.
Why have 165 when you can have 200?
The market is forward looking as it should be.
 
Only one manufacturer that makes a 150-165hp 4 stroke, that should tell ya something whitedust maybe the market for that type of sled isn't that big.:dunno:
 
Know what? It is what it is. Lot’s of great sleds to choose from out there. If one manufacturer doesn’t have what you want buy from another and hope you get what you wanted.

I wanted speed and power without motor problems so I bought the Winder. Still wasn’t enough so I put a tune and gears in it. Still a rocking sled that not only shits and gets, but takes the bumps better then any of my previous sleds and handles pretty good also. I agree, 160 hp is not my happy spot at all! 260 seems sweet!!!
 
74Nitro said:
I don't think Yamaha has any interest in filling all the market 'niches'. It may even be too late for the Viper even if it did become 160hp. It should have been that way years ago. The only reason a 155-165hp class exists is because that is the maximum an 800 or 850 can produce. Manufacturers have had trouble with twins that are larger than that.
The trend is always up, has been for decades.
Why have 165 when you can have 200?
The market is forward looking as it should be.
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Then why do consumers purchase NA Ace sleds and Vipers as well as 600 2s? Simple answer that’s the hp niche they want. Not everyone wants monster hp don’t see the need for it for the price they are willing to pay. As I said Yamaha has the big pony 4s model represented well with SW and SRX models. Impossible to gain market share without addressing the other hp niches. Can Yamaha stay in snowmobile biz with 2 4s hp market segments SW and Viper? Imo that’s going to be a tuff road to hoe to stay in the snowmobile business.
 
whitedust1 said:
Then why do consumers purchase NA Ace sleds and Vipers as well as 600 2s? Simple answer that’s the hp niche they want. Not everyone wants monster hp don’t see the need for it for the price they are willing to pay. As I said Yamaha has the big pony 4s model represented well with SW and SRX models. Impossible to gain market share without addressing the other hp niches. Can Yamaha stay in snowmobile biz with 2 4s hp market segments SW and Viper? Imo that’s going to be a tuff road to hoe to stay in the snowmobile business.
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Very true^^^^^^
 
whitedust1 said:
Then why do consumers purchase NA Ace sleds and Vipers as well as 600 2s? Simple answer that’s the hp niche they want. Not everyone wants monster hp don’t see the need for it for the price they are willing to pay. As I said Yamaha has the big pony 4s model represented well with SW and SRX models. Impossible to gain market share without addressing the other hp niches. Can Yamaha stay in snowmobile biz with 2 4s hp market segments SW and Viper? Imo that’s going to be a tuff road to hoe to stay in the snowmobile business.
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My dealer sells about 30 Winders every year and about 5 Vipers.
There is no need to fill every niche if another manufacturer already has it filled.
Besides, if trying to fill a niche isn't profitable, and it probably isn't, why do it.
 
74Nitro said:
My dealer sells about 30 Winders every year and about 5 Vipers.
There is no need to fill every niche if another manufacturer already has it filled.
Besides, if trying to fill a niche isn't profitable, and it probably isn't, why do it.
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Of course its profitable that’s why Doo is the market leader and Doo is now taking 4s sales from Yamaha with NA 900 Ace and 900t. Doo has a huge market appeal that Yamaha lacks mainly because Yamaha doesn’t have a broad product line to participate in all market segments. There are always winners and losers in business and Yamaha is on the losing end can’t sell what they don’t have. Doo will gain 4s market share since Polaris doesn’t care about 4s market never has , Textron only Tcat, Yamaha Viper and SW. Doo gets all the rest of the 4s market no one to compete with them. Easy sales easy money for them.
 
whitedust1 said:
Of course its profitable that’s why Doo is the market leader and Doo is now taking 4s sales from Yamaha with NA 900 Ace and 900t. Doo has a huge market appeal that Yamaha lacks mainly because Yamaha doesn’t have a broad product line to participate in all market segments. There are always winners and losers in business and Yamaha is on the losing end can’t sell what they don’t have. Doo will gain 4s market share since Polaris doesn’t care about 4s market never has , Textron only Tcat, Yamaha Viper and SW. Doo gets all the rest of the 4s market no one to compete with them. Easy sales easy money for them.
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Yamaha isn’t interested in low profit margin sleds anymore, that’s evident. Snowmobile prices are high because production numbers are low. I would be willing to bet Yamaha makes twice as much $$$$ on a Winder opposed to a 600cc class sled.
Don’t matter none know how, snowmobiling is a dying sport, we are lucky to have the choices we have!
 
ClutchMaster said:
Yamaha isn’t interested in low profit margin sleds anymore, that’s evident. Snowmobile prices are high because production numbers are low. I would be willing to bet Yamaha makes twice as much $$$$ on a Winder opposed to a 600cc class sled.
Don’t matter none know how, snowmobiling is a dying sport, we are lucky to have the choices we have!
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What happens if Doo takes on the the SW 4s monster hp market that is dominated by Yamaha? It’s only a matter of time until they Doo. Then Yamaha splits that market with Doo will profitability make sense for Yamaha to continue? Highly doubtful and Yes I agree the overall snowmobile market is shrinking and Yamaha is losing market share. I guess it’s better that Doo has something for everyone so all market segments have a product. In the end only the strong survive and looking like maybe only enough sales for Doo and Poo when the end comes. I hate to see the elimination of Yamaha and or AC but it seems to be happening before our eyes. Nothing ventured nothing gained is self fulfilling to the end.
 
whitedust1 said:
Of course its profitable that’s why Doo is the market leader and Doo is now taking 4s sales from Yamaha with NA 900 Ace and 900t. Doo has a huge market appeal that Yamaha lacks mainly because Yamaha doesn’t have a broad product line to participate in all market segments. There are always winners and losers in business and Yamaha is on the losing end can’t sell what they don’t have. Doo will gain 4s market share since Polaris doesn’t care about 4s market never has , Textron only Tcat, Yamaha Viper and SW. Doo gets all the rest of the 4s market no one to compete with them. Easy sales easy money for them.
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I disagree that filling niche markets is profitable. The snowmobile industry just isn't big enough for everyone to build sleds for niche markets.
Yamaha hasn't attempted to fill the mountain sled 850 market which is big so why would they even consider niche markets.
I re-iterate that going forward Yamaha is only going to focus on the market where the meat of the sales are and if that means losing a few customers for the niche segment - so be it.
My dealer is selling Winders like hotcakes compared to the Apex days where sales kept dwindling every year.
 
Watch what BRP does for the 2020 sxs as there will be hp increases .They did the same with the spark ace 60 90 110 and now the 900t .What's next ? Pay Attention .Theses Aftermarket guys will also need to get into the pwc and sxs performance business if they want to keep the doors open without the 998 guys .
 
First what everyone is missing, skidoo hasn’t made to date a 4 stroke snowmobile on the same hp to cc as Yamaha. ( and Yamaha used mostly valve train from the vector, nothing special , nitro valve train could be used, or technology from the R1 motor ) Skidoo doesn’t have a relable 1000cc motor to put out . Only way they can compete would be going back to the 1170 motor. If the 150-160hp sleds was that important to Yamaha they could just put a smaller turbo package on the sidewinder...6-8 psi boost. Which would be the only option with a 3 cylinder turbo as I don’t think they will put a updated R1 motor in , to expensive.
 
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74Nitro said:
I disagree that filling niche markets is profitable. The snowmobile industry just isn't big enough for everyone to build sleds for niche markets.
Yamaha hasn't attempted to fill the mountain sled 850 market which is big so why would they even consider niche markets.
I re-iterate that going forward Yamaha is only going to focus on the market where the meat of the sales are and if that means losing a few customers for the niche segment - so be it.
My dealer is selling Winders like hotcakes compared to the Apex days where sales kept dwindling every year.
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What your are not considering is Textron doesn’t seem to care about continued chassis agreement already canned use of the Viper engine just not a lot of revenue for either Yamaha or Textron. Pro cross old in the tooth and need to move on to something new is necessary. I keep looking for incremental revenue for Yamaha and they just keep shrinking. When does the ROI completely fail continued participation?
 
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