A
Anonymous
oh and I may be a newbie but I still know sled's
He wasnt saying that your a newbie and you dont know anything, hes saying your a newbie so you dont know SJ. Anyways I cant believe theres 5 pages of this because of a magazine article. Since when is your buying choice because of someone elses opinion. You buy what you like, If you own an xtx you obviously bought it for a reason and probaly like it. I agree 300 miles isnt fair to make a review on but they did and they didnt like it......oh well. Starting to sound like we really need snow because everyone is wayyyyyy to bored right now.
Being loyal to a brand is OK to a point, but "bleeding blue" or whatever no matter what, your missing out.
I used to be a die hard Ford fan. Chevy, Dodge, whatever, IMO was pure junk and I wanted nothing to do with them. I eat them up daily with my blown Mustang and laugh at the fools who bought brand X. So the time comes for me to get a new Mustang.. Shelby GT500. Buddy of mine says why don't you go look at a new Z06?
What??!! That's the most evil of the Chevy POS's.. no way. I do anyway. Took a test drive.. I then realized I had been the fool so I whipped out the checkbook and drove home with a brand spanking new Z06. That car out performed the GT500 in EVERY aspect. My opinion now is I ignore who's name is on whatever it may be. If it does what I want when I want for the price I want, I'm buying it. So now I have a Mercedes E500 for my daily car, my SUV is a twin turbo AWD Trailblazer SS, I have 2 Jeeps, a Ford Powerstroke fits my diesel needs and the Z06. I do still have the Mustang too.. but it sure feels like a bucket of bolts compared to the rest of my fleet.
Reason I have 5 Yamaha's.. well the 4 strokes at least (3 of them) is the motor. The rest of the sled, well.. not so good compared to others in many areas.
My 05 RX1 tossed a rod right through the block within 400 miles. Brand new. Yamaha fixed it of course.
My Attak ate up idlers like a fat girl in a warehouse of twinkies until the dealer wouldn't replace them anymore. I'm on my own on those now.
I have enough broken pistons from my SRX and SXR to probably build a new Apex bulkhead. I don't compare reliability of my 4 strokes to 2 strokes. Apples/Oranges. Blowing up a 2 is a given.
As for the marketing things, its a HUGE factor in why people buy what they buy. That dude Billy Mays sold MILLIONS of near worthless products to millions of people and they loved it. A ShamWOW won't dry the sweat off my balls but Vince makes a killing off them.
Ski Doo's ad where they were putting weights on the front of a Rev so it was 'even' with a Yamaha was actually a good ad. Maybe not 100% truthful, but in the minds of people, they drove home "Yahama = heavy". Hmm.. I don't want no heavy sled.. I better buy a Rev.
Cat pushes performance.. and it works for them. They borderline on pure smack talk in their ads, and there's people who eat that sort of stuff up. Bad thing is, alot of their products back it up.
Yamaha pushes quality. Quality = boring. Think Toyota (BTW, the Tundra I have for my company vehicle was the 2nd most recalled vehicle in 2008. Quality???). Sure it's important, but the average person rides just over 1400 miles a season. So in the mind of the buyer, really, how important is it? There are better things for them to push to get people to buy them.
Still haven't figured out what Polaris is after. They keep changing their minds all the time.
Back when I was younger, if you rode a Harley, you were pretty much a dirtball Hell's Angels wannabe. Today, your the coolest dude on the block. They haven't changed the heap your riding, just peoples perceptions of it via marketing.
I used to be a die hard Ford fan. Chevy, Dodge, whatever, IMO was pure junk and I wanted nothing to do with them. I eat them up daily with my blown Mustang and laugh at the fools who bought brand X. So the time comes for me to get a new Mustang.. Shelby GT500. Buddy of mine says why don't you go look at a new Z06?
What??!! That's the most evil of the Chevy POS's.. no way. I do anyway. Took a test drive.. I then realized I had been the fool so I whipped out the checkbook and drove home with a brand spanking new Z06. That car out performed the GT500 in EVERY aspect. My opinion now is I ignore who's name is on whatever it may be. If it does what I want when I want for the price I want, I'm buying it. So now I have a Mercedes E500 for my daily car, my SUV is a twin turbo AWD Trailblazer SS, I have 2 Jeeps, a Ford Powerstroke fits my diesel needs and the Z06. I do still have the Mustang too.. but it sure feels like a bucket of bolts compared to the rest of my fleet.
Reason I have 5 Yamaha's.. well the 4 strokes at least (3 of them) is the motor. The rest of the sled, well.. not so good compared to others in many areas.
My 05 RX1 tossed a rod right through the block within 400 miles. Brand new. Yamaha fixed it of course.
My Attak ate up idlers like a fat girl in a warehouse of twinkies until the dealer wouldn't replace them anymore. I'm on my own on those now.
I have enough broken pistons from my SRX and SXR to probably build a new Apex bulkhead. I don't compare reliability of my 4 strokes to 2 strokes. Apples/Oranges. Blowing up a 2 is a given.
As for the marketing things, its a HUGE factor in why people buy what they buy. That dude Billy Mays sold MILLIONS of near worthless products to millions of people and they loved it. A ShamWOW won't dry the sweat off my balls but Vince makes a killing off them.
Ski Doo's ad where they were putting weights on the front of a Rev so it was 'even' with a Yamaha was actually a good ad. Maybe not 100% truthful, but in the minds of people, they drove home "Yahama = heavy". Hmm.. I don't want no heavy sled.. I better buy a Rev.
Cat pushes performance.. and it works for them. They borderline on pure smack talk in their ads, and there's people who eat that sort of stuff up. Bad thing is, alot of their products back it up.
Yamaha pushes quality. Quality = boring. Think Toyota (BTW, the Tundra I have for my company vehicle was the 2nd most recalled vehicle in 2008. Quality???). Sure it's important, but the average person rides just over 1400 miles a season. So in the mind of the buyer, really, how important is it? There are better things for them to push to get people to buy them.
Still haven't figured out what Polaris is after. They keep changing their minds all the time.
Back when I was younger, if you rode a Harley, you were pretty much a dirtball Hell's Angels wannabe. Today, your the coolest dude on the block. They haven't changed the heap your riding, just peoples perceptions of it via marketing.
madthumper
Extreme
Marketing reliability in sleds is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
If you were to put a top 5 list together of what you look for in a sled, I bet reliability would be 4th or 5th....if even in the top 5.
At the end of the day, all 2 stroke sleds currently made are reliable enough to make them more attractive than most 4 stroke sleds.
I'm actually hoping my 4 stroke Doo will be as reliable as my 2 stroke Doos. As much as I love it, I'm still wondering if I'm going to be riding it 3-4 years from now. I'm guessing no.
If you were to put a top 5 list together of what you look for in a sled, I bet reliability would be 4th or 5th....if even in the top 5.
At the end of the day, all 2 stroke sleds currently made are reliable enough to make them more attractive than most 4 stroke sleds.
I'm actually hoping my 4 stroke Doo will be as reliable as my 2 stroke Doos. As much as I love it, I'm still wondering if I'm going to be riding it 3-4 years from now. I'm guessing no.
journeyman
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Well this post has gotten alot of traffic. Interesting to hear everyones point of view.
Here are a few more quotes from two other reviews:
2009 Arctic Cat TZ-1 (weighed 100 more lbs. than XTX)
"Hands down our test riders would take this sled over the XTX for ride and handling. Granted, you couldn't get nearly as aggressive on it with out bottoming it in comparison to the XTX, but the overall lighter steering, flatter cornering, confidence-inspiring manners and smooth ride quality for sit-down trail riding was the difference. We realize we are comparing different segments of sled here, but they were both 141'-144" four-strokes with similar power. So yes, the TZ-1 was a softer calibration and the XTX was more of a stand-up sled, but that said about the only time our riders would take the XTX instead of the TZ-1 would be in very rough conditions or for stand-up riding, on or off trail."
Also on a different note: Some other quotes on another Yamaha sled.(2009 RS Venture GT)
When we had tested this model back in January and March, it was a great runner that handled fairly well and rode great, so we figured it would be OK to have for one of those days when we wanted to sit back and enjoy the scenery instead of blasting through the bumps or carving through the fresh powder.
What we found was, again, an outstanding four stroke engine that really sets the bar for engine durabilty, fuel economy and broad linear powerband. But once we get past the goodness of the engine, the rest of the sled was heavy, cumbersome and really tough to pull out of a snowbank if you roll it on its side or simply get stuck. That's when you get your friends, assuming you're not riding alone, and pull the beast out. .....
....the handling was typical Yamaha four stroke, with heavy steering...............froma ride and handling perspective, our riders preferred the lighter Arctic Cat TZ-1"
hmmm, the Venture they only rode 252 miles. The Cat was lighter...?? OK so they noticed that 677 lbs was so much lighter than 697 lbs. ??? I did read most of the reviews and these guys on many occasions don't make much sense. So if you got the TZ-1 stuck it wasn't hard to pull out vs. the Yamaha?? IMHO their reviews seemed biased. I do not doubt that brand X have good riding or handling sleds, but this was one of the more lousy reviews I have witnessed from Snow Tech. It's amazing how the protos rode so good and then all of the sudden the production models suck. Just doesn't make alot of sense to me. But then again maybe it was just that. I do know I rode a prototype Viper in the 2001 winter and it did ride good and when my 2002 got to me it rode like a cement truck and I changed out the shocks. So what's the deal, we have Joe Yamaha at R&D that can really set a sled up in proto form, but at the last minute he always gets trumped by Mr. Nagasaki and instead his setup goes into production??
Here are a few more quotes from two other reviews:
2009 Arctic Cat TZ-1 (weighed 100 more lbs. than XTX)
"Hands down our test riders would take this sled over the XTX for ride and handling. Granted, you couldn't get nearly as aggressive on it with out bottoming it in comparison to the XTX, but the overall lighter steering, flatter cornering, confidence-inspiring manners and smooth ride quality for sit-down trail riding was the difference. We realize we are comparing different segments of sled here, but they were both 141'-144" four-strokes with similar power. So yes, the TZ-1 was a softer calibration and the XTX was more of a stand-up sled, but that said about the only time our riders would take the XTX instead of the TZ-1 would be in very rough conditions or for stand-up riding, on or off trail."
Also on a different note: Some other quotes on another Yamaha sled.(2009 RS Venture GT)
When we had tested this model back in January and March, it was a great runner that handled fairly well and rode great, so we figured it would be OK to have for one of those days when we wanted to sit back and enjoy the scenery instead of blasting through the bumps or carving through the fresh powder.
What we found was, again, an outstanding four stroke engine that really sets the bar for engine durabilty, fuel economy and broad linear powerband. But once we get past the goodness of the engine, the rest of the sled was heavy, cumbersome and really tough to pull out of a snowbank if you roll it on its side or simply get stuck. That's when you get your friends, assuming you're not riding alone, and pull the beast out. .....
....the handling was typical Yamaha four stroke, with heavy steering...............froma ride and handling perspective, our riders preferred the lighter Arctic Cat TZ-1"
hmmm, the Venture they only rode 252 miles. The Cat was lighter...?? OK so they noticed that 677 lbs was so much lighter than 697 lbs. ??? I did read most of the reviews and these guys on many occasions don't make much sense. So if you got the TZ-1 stuck it wasn't hard to pull out vs. the Yamaha?? IMHO their reviews seemed biased. I do not doubt that brand X have good riding or handling sleds, but this was one of the more lousy reviews I have witnessed from Snow Tech. It's amazing how the protos rode so good and then all of the sudden the production models suck. Just doesn't make alot of sense to me. But then again maybe it was just that. I do know I rode a prototype Viper in the 2001 winter and it did ride good and when my 2002 got to me it rode like a cement truck and I changed out the shocks. So what's the deal, we have Joe Yamaha at R&D that can really set a sled up in proto form, but at the last minute he always gets trumped by Mr. Nagasaki and instead his setup goes into production??
chevmal67
Pro
madthumper said:
Maybe for you its not in the top 5. Sleds are expensive enough the way it is and when it comes time to sell, well most of us know how quick they depreciate. So maybe im wrong and the only one that thinks this, but to ride something that i dont have to worry about sticking a bunch more into an already expensive sport, definately counts for something. And I love how my xtx performs, its not like comparing a toyota carrola to a Z06 vette like some are making it sound like. This year should be interesting, the 2 i ride with just got an 09 etec renegade and an 09 4 tec renegade x.
On another note - did anyone see that there's snow on the ground outside of Denver. . . .
Guys I know my Phazer isnt a Nytro but it has the same so called issues.Stock shocks are something Yamaha should be ashamed of in many cases.Would I like to have it handle and ride like the Doo's?Sometimes yes.I am very nervous letting a novice ride my sled because of the handling.Other times I find that it actually works better.
So look at it like this.Would you expect to get in a Formula 1 car and drive it?No.Most would have a hard time even getting it off the start.Its kind of the same thing with this style of sled from Yamaha.The more you ride it the better you get.All of sudden you realize that even though you arent sliding around the corners spinning the track like mad.Dang these other guys are actually holding you up!Then you get into the big bumps at end of day and dang why are they all ready to go home?I am not tired.This is FUN and sled handles like a dream in the bumps.I actually tend to think that the Nytro style sled is actually more of a advanced rider sled if you arent at that level and not willing to put the time in riding to get there.You will never enjoy the benefits.
So look at it like this.Would you expect to get in a Formula 1 car and drive it?No.Most would have a hard time even getting it off the start.Its kind of the same thing with this style of sled from Yamaha.The more you ride it the better you get.All of sudden you realize that even though you arent sliding around the corners spinning the track like mad.Dang these other guys are actually holding you up!Then you get into the big bumps at end of day and dang why are they all ready to go home?I am not tired.This is FUN and sled handles like a dream in the bumps.I actually tend to think that the Nytro style sled is actually more of a advanced rider sled if you arent at that level and not willing to put the time in riding to get there.You will never enjoy the benefits.
legends14x
Pro
Sticks in the Face said:
or the really in your face yamaha add for the whole truck load of 2 stroke oil???? in the same rag!!!!!
just to chime back in...I love yamaha and drink the coolaid...but am only buzzed...not drunk....if I get pulled over...I sober up immediately.. capische?
yam had a definative advantage entering the fourstroke market and to some degree is loosing ground (for the reasons I previously stated)...
for me...what I bought is the best value for my money...of course while getting a buzz... no odouls here...
what does it take.... apples to apples ....to either get me trashed (like the power of a z1 turbo) is a lot more coin with tradeoffs...
or what ...
an etec doo (no greased main bearings for me) or back to two stroke oil buring at $40 dollars a gallon with all the aggravation associated with it?
this sled isnt like the hottest chick...nor a porn star...with unwanted gift's that keep giving!
but one who's sneaky hot...easy to get along with
...will not leave you stranded ...will have fun in a lot of different environments....
and isnt a goldigger(easy on the wallet)...oh...and needs a little more effort and touch...but she'll reward you with something that isnt easy to find...
a fun and dependable partner...that never lets you down and puts a smile on your face...she's a keeper...
yam had a definative advantage entering the fourstroke market and to some degree is loosing ground (for the reasons I previously stated)...
for me...what I bought is the best value for my money...of course while getting a buzz... no odouls here...
what does it take.... apples to apples ....to either get me trashed (like the power of a z1 turbo) is a lot more coin with tradeoffs...
or what ...
an etec doo (no greased main bearings for me) or back to two stroke oil buring at $40 dollars a gallon with all the aggravation associated with it?
this sled isnt like the hottest chick...nor a porn star...with unwanted gift's that keep giving!
but one who's sneaky hot...easy to get along with
...will not leave you stranded ...will have fun in a lot of different environments....
and isnt a goldigger(easy on the wallet)...oh...and needs a little more effort and touch...but she'll reward you with something that isnt easy to find...
a fun and dependable partner...that never lets you down and puts a smile on your face...she's a keeper...
legends14x
Pro
sj said:
x2... we're still talking sleds; right????
arteeex
TY 4 Stroke Master
SJ; Two more paragraphs at that would qualify to be on the Penthouse Forum
just lightening it up (pun intended) some...
journeyman
Lifetime Member
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Another thing I was thinking. Someone mentioned the more they rode their Nytro the better they got at making it handle........hence getting used to it. That brings us back to not putting any miles on the Yamaha test sleds. Now think about Snow Tech's test riders. Assume none of them are Yamaha riders (which you can bet on). Naturally they are going to pick their brand to put the most miles on. Just another thought.
My Attak is like Pam Anderson, if you have ever seen her without makeup and whatnot.. um.. I have..yeah no thanks. Slap on some Lipstick and Rouge (I.E. new skis, better track, better idlers, bar risers..) and whoo hoo.. Assume the position woman!
Don't get me wrong, I like my 4 strokes. It's why I have 3 of them. I'd have 4 if Yamaha would have added 20HP to the 2010 Apex or the Nytro.
I don't care for 2 strokes one bit. My SRX and SXR collect dust and wasp nests. But, I think back to that Rev XP rental sled. Man, what a riot on the trails that thing was. Ok.. so I gotta buy oil. Lets see..$400 for a new set of ski's is 10 gallons of oil. New track is over 12 gallons of oil. Bunch of other junk to make it handle, turn, take bumps, not freeze my hands, etc.. That's an awful lot of oil I could have bought and no parts to make that sled work for me. I paid $8600 for the thing brand new. Added another $2000+ JUST to make it work right.
So now I paid over "$10K" for something I'm pretty happy with. Thinking back.. for that much.. was there something better right out of the box? Possibly but I did not look. I wanted a 4 stroke. Is there now? I think there just might be.
I was over at the dealership waiting for somebody and they had one of them new turbo Cats there so I sat on it. My buddy comes out and starts showing me everything the seat and bars do. Wow.. you mean I don't have to buy pivoting risers or put extra foam in my seat? Nope. I think it's ugly as sin, but it sure had some cool features and the HP surely is tempting. I just can't get over how it looks. Like when I buy a car..the interior design is just as, if not more important than the exterior. I'm thinking, when I am driving the car for hours at a time.. what am I looking at? The inside or the outside? On a sled, I can see the outside so the ugly overrules the HP on the Cat for me.
I posted warranty dollars from this dealership awhile back for the 1st few months of this year. Ski Doo was WAY out in front with a huge amount. Mainly the 2 stroke engines blowing up.
I saw them again last week.. still Ski Doo is by far the OEM with the most claims (still 2 stroke engines breaking). What I also saw is Yamaha IS NOT #4.. Arctic Cat is.. and by quite a bit. Either Cat has really stepped up their game (most likely due to more 4 stroke sales) or Yamaha is slipping on the quality front. We didn't have enough time to come to a conclusion as to why the numbers are what they are.
Sales figures between Warranty #2,#3 and #4 are fairly close so it's not due to volume. Ski Doo sells more, but it's clear the increase in volume over the other 3 does not warrant the massive amount of warranty claims.
I've delt with magazines and doing articles, advertising and such for about 20 years. I know their game. You DO have the grease the palm as they say, but there is always some truth in reviews (good or bad). They can only go so far 'lying' (well.. maybe that's a bit too harsh a word) before an advertiser gets pissed and pulls dollars. They live off the ads, not the subscriptions so editorial copy is very important to them.
Don't get me wrong, I like my 4 strokes. It's why I have 3 of them. I'd have 4 if Yamaha would have added 20HP to the 2010 Apex or the Nytro.
I don't care for 2 strokes one bit. My SRX and SXR collect dust and wasp nests. But, I think back to that Rev XP rental sled. Man, what a riot on the trails that thing was. Ok.. so I gotta buy oil. Lets see..$400 for a new set of ski's is 10 gallons of oil. New track is over 12 gallons of oil. Bunch of other junk to make it handle, turn, take bumps, not freeze my hands, etc.. That's an awful lot of oil I could have bought and no parts to make that sled work for me. I paid $8600 for the thing brand new. Added another $2000+ JUST to make it work right.
So now I paid over "$10K" for something I'm pretty happy with. Thinking back.. for that much.. was there something better right out of the box? Possibly but I did not look. I wanted a 4 stroke. Is there now? I think there just might be.
I was over at the dealership waiting for somebody and they had one of them new turbo Cats there so I sat on it. My buddy comes out and starts showing me everything the seat and bars do. Wow.. you mean I don't have to buy pivoting risers or put extra foam in my seat? Nope. I think it's ugly as sin, but it sure had some cool features and the HP surely is tempting. I just can't get over how it looks. Like when I buy a car..the interior design is just as, if not more important than the exterior. I'm thinking, when I am driving the car for hours at a time.. what am I looking at? The inside or the outside? On a sled, I can see the outside so the ugly overrules the HP on the Cat for me.
I posted warranty dollars from this dealership awhile back for the 1st few months of this year. Ski Doo was WAY out in front with a huge amount. Mainly the 2 stroke engines blowing up.
I saw them again last week.. still Ski Doo is by far the OEM with the most claims (still 2 stroke engines breaking). What I also saw is Yamaha IS NOT #4.. Arctic Cat is.. and by quite a bit. Either Cat has really stepped up their game (most likely due to more 4 stroke sales) or Yamaha is slipping on the quality front. We didn't have enough time to come to a conclusion as to why the numbers are what they are.
Sales figures between Warranty #2,#3 and #4 are fairly close so it's not due to volume. Ski Doo sells more, but it's clear the increase in volume over the other 3 does not warrant the massive amount of warranty claims.
I've delt with magazines and doing articles, advertising and such for about 20 years. I know their game. You DO have the grease the palm as they say, but there is always some truth in reviews (good or bad). They can only go so far 'lying' (well.. maybe that's a bit too harsh a word) before an advertiser gets pissed and pulls dollars. They live off the ads, not the subscriptions so editorial copy is very important to them.