Survey: Yamaha Factory is Listening

[birkebeiner]

Chrs, where can I get this jacket?? (the red and white one)

Coolest looking Yamaha jacket I've ever seen!!

 

[RunninRX1]

I have not heard one complaint about the quality and reliability that extra weight brings with it.

Slider wear, wheels falling apart, mono skid cracking/breaking, bushings falling apart.. there's a few.

If weight = quality then I'd be happy with them adding 100# or so if the skis actually worked, hand warmers work, headlights could be aimed properly, didn't run over my snow flap and chew it up each time I back up, shocks were calibrated properly, steering bushing didn't wear out so fast and make it sloppy, front and rear suspensions bushings weren't all shot in a couple thousand miles, all my idler wheels were still intact after a ride, my sliders made it more than 300 miles before I have holes in them.... etc.

The engines are probably the most reliable engines you can get and obviously a 4 cylinder 4 stroke is going to be heavy. Gotta work around that.
Engine reliability is only going to get you so far in the marketplace.. I.E. there is a reason they are #4 in sales.

There are plenty of small things they could do to drop weight and not sacrifice in other areas. Here's one.. get rid of the overly complicated parking brake system. I took all that stuff off and made a replacement for it that weighs about 0.3 ounces.

As far as trail riding, not real sure what your trails are like, but I ride some tight trails and I'm far from riding like a girl scout. I'll get off my Attak and onto say a XP or a XR1200 and hammer it, by the 2nd corner the weight difference is extremely noticeable. On something like flat wide open trails or RR beds.. then no.. weight is not noticeable really.

One other thing extra weight has a detrimental effect on is fuel economy. More mass you have to push, more fuel you have to consume to make the power required.

A Harley is a big-ole heavy pig compared to say a R6... which one of those is more reliable?

 

[Alatalo]

Power steering on the Apex is great, but it's like putting a fat chick in a hot prom dress, in the end you've still got a fat chick.

We are only in the beginning of May, but damn it - this has got to be the statement of the year...!

 

[Srxspec]

I bleed blue like hardly anybody else and I hate to have to work on other brand lines to make money in our business.

Give me the Apex motor in a FX Nytro style chassis for the aggressive bump guys (who wouldn't want 20 hp more and the Apex motor weighs all of 8 lbs more than a FX Nytro), but put the chassis on a diet (70 lbs is doable on the FX Nytro without sacrificing any reliability) and you would have something. Do the same thing to the Apex/Vector chassis by lightening it 70 lbs, but leave the Apex motor in the Apex and Vector motor in the Vector. Leave power steering as an option for those that want it.

 

[Sled Dog]

not a lot of sledders think of yamaha and heavy in the same thought right now.

No offense, but did you hide under a rock or something during the last ten years...???
Man, you need to check out the mountain section...

The weight of the chassis is THE single, biggest problem of the Yamaha mountain sleds right now. This is the main factor why people buy other brands. And still, there is absolutely no proof for what you are saying about weight equals quality because there are no more chassis durability problems with any of the mountain models from other brands.

Period.

You better go back and reread what I said. I guess I should have put a comma in there and you should quote the whole thing not just a part to try and prove your point.

 

[Sled Dog]

I have not heard one complaint about the quality and reliability that extra weight brings with it.

Slider wear, wheels falling apart, mono skid cracking/breaking, bushings falling apart.. there's a few.

If weight = quality then I'd be happy with them adding 100# or so if the skis actually worked, hand warmers work, headlights could be aimed properly, didn't run over my snow flap and chew it up each time I back up, shocks were calibrated properly, steering bushing didn't wear out so fast and make it sloppy, front and rear suspensions bushings weren't all shot in a couple thousand miles, all my idler wheels were still intact after a ride, my sliders made it more than 300 miles before I have holes in them.... etc.

The engines are probably the most reliable engines you can get and obviously a 4 cylinder 4 stroke is going to be heavy. Gotta work around that.
Engine reliability is only going to get you so far in the marketplace.. I.E. there is a reason they are #4 in sales.

There are plenty of small things they could do to drop weight and not sacrifice in other areas. Here's one.. get rid of the overly complicated parking brake system. I took all that stuff off and made a replacement for it that weighs about 0.3 ounces.

As far as trail riding, not real sure what your trails are like, but I ride some tight trails and I'm far from riding like a girl scout. I'll get off my Attak and onto say a XP or a XR1200 and hammer it, by the 2nd corner the weight difference is extremely noticeable. On something like flat wide open trails or RR beds.. then no.. weight is not noticeable really.

One other thing extra weight has a detrimental effect on is fuel economy. More mass you have to push, more fuel you have to consume to make the power required.

A Harley is a big-ole heavy pig compared to say a R6... which one of those is more reliable?

I forgot all the other OEM are perfect. Yamaha leads the way in gas mileage even if they are a little heavier. I have yet to tow a yamaha home I have towed a few other OEM home. Slider wear, wheels has nothing to do with weight or do you need to reread again?

 

[Super Sled]

Okay Altalo, Ulmer, etc.: If you think Yamaha could drop a lot of weight, let's hear how. I'd love to hear how. And obviously using a bunch of super exotic materials and carbon fiber is an option, but too costly. Let's take the Apex or the Nytro. What parts are you going to delete/ slim down/ minimize to drop weight? I'd love to hear it.

Simple fact is, Yamaha is translating their build style into these sleds, which includes beefy components that are a bit heavier, but tougher and typically will last longer than other oem's. That's my take anyways. I see no way Yamaha could cost effectively drop more than 15 to 20 pounds max from either the Apex or Nytro.

 

[ecopter]

Okay Altalo, Ulmer, etc.: If you think Yamaha could drop a lot of weight, let's hear how. I'd love to hear how. And obviously using a bunch of super exotic materials and carbon fiber is an option, but too costly. Let's take the Apex or the Nytro. What parts are you going to delete/ slim down/ minimize to drop weight? I'd love to hear it.

Simple fact is, Yamaha is translating their build style into these sleds, which includes beefy components that are a bit heavier, but tougher and typically will last longer than other oem's. That's my take anyways. I see no way Yamaha could cost effectively drop more than 15 to 20 pounds max from either the Apex or Nytro.

I'll name a few........Seat, exhaust (redesign - alot of weight from engine to back of sled), cooling system, skid, A-arms, battery, headlight fairing.

If you're paying "X" for one part and "Y" for the new part, then Y-X=the cost (basically the difference). Additional costs should not be that much.

jf

 

[Honk]

I just fix what needs fixin. LOVE my Apex and won;t change till theres another 4 stroke that rivals it. There are none right now, but there gettin closer!

 

[Ruckus]

If you don't think weight is an issue then you are not riding your sled in actual snow. Driving down a groomed snow highway is akin to driving your car down a country road. Who would want to drive a Yaris when you can cruise in a Lincoln, right? For those of us who ride these sleds "hard", off the beaten path, busting trails, climbing hills, boondocking, jumping etc...they just can't take the abuse. They are too heavy and the components too slight, they handle poorly and tip easy spilling the oil into pristine snow. I pound my phazer and it breaks constantly and as I understand it RTX means "Rough Trail eXtreme"? Yet if you drive it as such you will quickly beat it to pieces...and this thing weighs 100lbs less than a Nytro (I shaved off 30 lbs and I'm not even an engineer)! Yamaha's while having excellent engines and fit and finish, fail miserably in the practicality department. They are not designed for... dare I say it...real riders (oh snap!) but for people who like a flashy, expensive ride that looks and sounds great on the groomed trails. Fuel tank above the exhaust and high off the tunnel is a lousy idea, the center of gravity gets worse with the more fuel that is in the machine (make no wonder the tanks are small). Fuel economy? I call bullsh!t. My 4 stroke 500 gets the same fuel economy as my brother's 800xp. Pound to hp ratio on his XP is 2.8 lbs/hp and mine is 6 lbs/hp. Work that out on a Nytro and its around 4.5 lb/hp. That's still a big jump from comparable 2 strokes. Keep going Yamaha, you'll keep the seniors happy on the snow highways but for those of us who want to really ride "out there" we need a lighter, more durable snowmobile.

 

[Alatalo]

Okay Altalo, Ulmer, etc.: If you think Yamaha could drop a lot of weight, let's hear how. I'd love to hear how.

Look at it this way - why can Ski-Doo and Arctic Cat use four stroke engines that are quite a lot heavier than the Yamaha four stroke engine and still end up with a lower total weight...? Because they build chassis that are quite a lot lighter...!

The Ski-Doo 1200 four stroker is 10-15 kilograms more than the Yamaha triple (depending on how much of the surrounding equipment that is included on the scale). Still, the total weight of the MXZ is some 20 kilograms less than the RTX. The Arctic Cat turbo four stroker is around 25 kilograms more than the Yamaha triple. Still, the weight numbers of the new generation sleds that has been distributed indicate the total weight to be more or less identical to the FX Nytro. How come they can use heavier engines and still get the same or lower total weight...? Why do Yamaha need a chassis that is 20-30 kilograms more than the competitors...? OK, the AC is unproven, but there is still zero proof that Ski-Doo would have more chassis durability problems than Yamaha.

And last but not least, if weight would equal chassis durability, how come I could remove some twenty kilograms from my MTX SE - without being extreme in any way, only one carbon / titanium part - and still get no chassis durability problems at all...???

 

[Off Trail Mike]

What I think is sadly missing from Yami is the use of "blue bleeders" to field test new components that would push down weight and increase durablity. I can't think of too many owner's out there who wouldn't be willing to assess a new lightweight suspension for a season of "durability testing". Sign the waiver, install an accelerometer (we have one that can data log for 6 months that's the size of a matchbox), and ride. At the end of the season, you would get hard data (accelerometer), subjective data (rider) and the hardware back to evaluate its durablity. Same for battery, same for exhaust, steering and on and on. We are 5 years into the Nytro and 10 years into the Apex platforms, so no reasons why this evolution can't happen, and best of all, it is nearly free.

And what about early or limited release models? The 800 ETEC was limited release last year, and this has been used both as a marketing and development tool by other OEM's for years.. Hype and testing ..... wow what a combo.

Like Ruckus and many others in this post, if you want a boulevard cruiser, we have those in spades and they are excellent machines. If you want a boondocker, or powder machine, Yami is moving away from the bullseye. You might not think its an important segment, but each passing year, I find more and tracks heading off the groomed trails, something you'd never see even 5 years ago.

And I just can't buy the durability requires more weight arguement. With 60+ lbs in the difference between our best yami chassis and the other OEM's, we are nowhere near the "ragged edge" of chassis weight, so the first 30 is likely pretty easy.

Oh yeah, since the Apex motor is only 8 lbs heavier than the Nytro's, my vote is for a small battery (to save the 8 lbs) and the apex motor in the Nytro please. Thanks Allan, I had no idea they were that close to one another.....unbelievable.

OTM

 

[SledFreak]

The XP breaks way more often. And forget Polaris's glued together chasis, I'll take rivets any day.

So I respectfully disagree with u -- there is a reason they weigh more.

For the number of bent items on an XP, I could the same or more Nytros subframes bending. So where is the quality?

 

[Srxspec]

Tunnels with strength "stamped" into them instead of multiple pieces pop riveted together as they currently are. Rails can be made just as durable, but lighter. Foot or toe holds bars on the FX Nytro are made of steel, switch it to aluminum. Front subframes made of chromoly which would be stronger and lighter (-6 lbs). There is enough areas to remove weight without sacrificing any reliability or durability and not getting into any crazy highly exotic materials. 16 ounces = 1 lb save 16 ounces 75 different places and you've got 75 lbs.

 

[SledFreak]

The other issue that needs to be addressed and I pointed it out in the survey is the balance of the sleds. They are all way to front end heavy. They need to lower the motors and pull them back some. I feel that the rear exit exhaust hinders them in many ways as well. With having the rear exit exhaust, they have to run a smaller gas tank, ice build up is just rediculous and there always seems to be a studding issue. If they spun the motor around (like the XR 1200 or the Cat 1100) you would eliminate weight on the front end, lower the motor and have a better balance, because then you could put the tank under the seat towards the back of the seat, which balances out the weight of the 4 stroke motor. The minimal gains from the rear straight shot from the exhaust are minimal and cause more issues from it then anything.