Testing in the big horns and I need some direction with my set up. (Ulmer HE turbo Nytro)
Day 1
I think I have a blue/brown in it from the past. In MI I had to give the helix a quarter turn in to get my rpms close. This doesn’t follow what your guide lines are on the helix sheet. Now for out here in the big horns when I unloaded the sled on the trail I was making 5 pounds of boost at about 8000 rpms. This was at 8200 feet elevation. We road from 8200 to probably 9800 feet. I have about 8 full turns on the boost controller now and up high I still only see 5-6 pounds and at 8200 I see 7 pounds sometimes. At 7 pounds/8200 feet my rpms are finally getting closer (8600) on the trail, not in the snow. Now on the trail at wide open I will see anything from 13 – 15 AFR, This concerns me!
Now up high when in some snow going up a hill I might only see 5 -6 pounds (8 turns in) and will only see about 7500-7900 rpms. I will have to pay closer attention to the AFR tomorrow as it was snowing hard. I feel I am missing a lot of power and I am worried/ wondering if the AFR is in a safe zone because I believe your original paper work said wide open should be around 12.5 If you ease into the throttle before pinning it there are times the AFR will stay between 13-14. It is weird how this seems to fluctuate but most of the time it climbs right up near 15.
Day 2
What do you recommend I do for the AFR? I did some more testing today with clear skies, now if you pin it from a dead stop or a slower roll it will climb up to 14-15 at wide open. If you quick let off and get back into it does drop it to about 12. Now if you ease on the throttle and get the rpms close to 7000 then pin it the AFR seems to run properly. Around 12. I don’t know a lot about the fuel delivery electronics but it seems that there is a transition point around 7000 and if you work the throttle a certain way you can get it to run properly, but who wants to do that? And sometimes in the deep stuff you don’t have a choice. That being said I watched that gauge like a hawk today to make sure any time I was hitting the throttle hard I would make it run near 12 to be safe but I do need to find a fix for it! Any suggestions what might be causing it and what would take care of it? Thanks!
Day 3
I was able to get that spring for the primary, now on the trail I’m hitting 8600-8700 with a touch more boost but in the snow on a climb I might only see 7800 or so with around 5-6 pounds. I plan to take out the tip rivet in the morning to see if that helps any. So in the snow I didn’t see much change with the new spring but that being said we did find a little deeper snow today on the hills.
Today a new thing happened with the AFR gauge. Once in a while when you first start it the gauge will barry itself into 18 and flash the small light while the warm up light is on but as soon as it is warmed up everything acts normal. I know this is a code for an error for a sensor or connection according to the directions, the gauge and sensor are basically brand new.
Also some days at idle it will read 15 and now today it probably idled half the day around 13.5 at wide open I can make it run 11-12.5 but still had to watch it when you pinned it because there were times it wanted to run up to 14 ish. I guess my point with all this is it doesn’t seem consistent.
Day 4
The clutching was set at what Ulmer recommended and on the way back to the lodge I played with the shockwave helix. I still have the weights loaded in all three holes as I didn’t get time to drill some out, this morning I dealt with a frozen starter relay instead. Now on the way back to the lodge with this clutching on a super hard pack, freshly groomed trail I saw 7-8 pounds at 8800-8900. As soon as I was in some snow the rpms would probably drop about 500-800 and I would only see about 5 pounds of boost and was very poochy. What clutching should I run because this set up is less than impressive!
Currant set up –
Stock mtx primary spring
White secondary spring 6-1
Stock loaded weights 2.5,4.5,4.5(tip)
Shockwave helix cranked in
My other big concern is the AFR as it seems to be off and I don’t know what to do about this at all. The only thing I have heard from Ulmer is where it should run not how to fix it. The first three days of logs I emailed to Ulmer hoping for help and now I am looking for help from you guys. Thanks!
Day 1
I think I have a blue/brown in it from the past. In MI I had to give the helix a quarter turn in to get my rpms close. This doesn’t follow what your guide lines are on the helix sheet. Now for out here in the big horns when I unloaded the sled on the trail I was making 5 pounds of boost at about 8000 rpms. This was at 8200 feet elevation. We road from 8200 to probably 9800 feet. I have about 8 full turns on the boost controller now and up high I still only see 5-6 pounds and at 8200 I see 7 pounds sometimes. At 7 pounds/8200 feet my rpms are finally getting closer (8600) on the trail, not in the snow. Now on the trail at wide open I will see anything from 13 – 15 AFR, This concerns me!
Now up high when in some snow going up a hill I might only see 5 -6 pounds (8 turns in) and will only see about 7500-7900 rpms. I will have to pay closer attention to the AFR tomorrow as it was snowing hard. I feel I am missing a lot of power and I am worried/ wondering if the AFR is in a safe zone because I believe your original paper work said wide open should be around 12.5 If you ease into the throttle before pinning it there are times the AFR will stay between 13-14. It is weird how this seems to fluctuate but most of the time it climbs right up near 15.
Day 2
What do you recommend I do for the AFR? I did some more testing today with clear skies, now if you pin it from a dead stop or a slower roll it will climb up to 14-15 at wide open. If you quick let off and get back into it does drop it to about 12. Now if you ease on the throttle and get the rpms close to 7000 then pin it the AFR seems to run properly. Around 12. I don’t know a lot about the fuel delivery electronics but it seems that there is a transition point around 7000 and if you work the throttle a certain way you can get it to run properly, but who wants to do that? And sometimes in the deep stuff you don’t have a choice. That being said I watched that gauge like a hawk today to make sure any time I was hitting the throttle hard I would make it run near 12 to be safe but I do need to find a fix for it! Any suggestions what might be causing it and what would take care of it? Thanks!
Day 3
I was able to get that spring for the primary, now on the trail I’m hitting 8600-8700 with a touch more boost but in the snow on a climb I might only see 7800 or so with around 5-6 pounds. I plan to take out the tip rivet in the morning to see if that helps any. So in the snow I didn’t see much change with the new spring but that being said we did find a little deeper snow today on the hills.
Today a new thing happened with the AFR gauge. Once in a while when you first start it the gauge will barry itself into 18 and flash the small light while the warm up light is on but as soon as it is warmed up everything acts normal. I know this is a code for an error for a sensor or connection according to the directions, the gauge and sensor are basically brand new.
Also some days at idle it will read 15 and now today it probably idled half the day around 13.5 at wide open I can make it run 11-12.5 but still had to watch it when you pinned it because there were times it wanted to run up to 14 ish. I guess my point with all this is it doesn’t seem consistent.
Day 4
The clutching was set at what Ulmer recommended and on the way back to the lodge I played with the shockwave helix. I still have the weights loaded in all three holes as I didn’t get time to drill some out, this morning I dealt with a frozen starter relay instead. Now on the way back to the lodge with this clutching on a super hard pack, freshly groomed trail I saw 7-8 pounds at 8800-8900. As soon as I was in some snow the rpms would probably drop about 500-800 and I would only see about 5 pounds of boost and was very poochy. What clutching should I run because this set up is less than impressive!
Currant set up –
Stock mtx primary spring
White secondary spring 6-1
Stock loaded weights 2.5,4.5,4.5(tip)
Shockwave helix cranked in
My other big concern is the AFR as it seems to be off and I don’t know what to do about this at all. The only thing I have heard from Ulmer is where it should run not how to fix it. The first three days of logs I emailed to Ulmer hoping for help and now I am looking for help from you guys. Thanks!
Afr's are just an indicator of other issues....what is your peak or optimal boost level 6-7 psi?
It sounds like your throwing more weight at the clutch....what are you running for rollers? What do you have for weights?
I think the HE system is designed for 6 psi right?
It also sounds like your trying to tune clutching for trail and for powder pulls on the hill...I never pay attention to trail rpm's as they do not matter to me....
I tune for powder pulls at around 8500 feet, as that is the heart of my riding....I generally pull more rpm's on ride in on trail (couple hundred) as I am only at 6,000 feet on trails in....but spot on at 8500 feet....
Gonna need some more details....
For me though (warning entering opinion) I do not like anymore weight or spring pressure than is needed....because back shifting is imperative to a great mountain sled....so, I try and tune with profiles and angles before weights and stronger springs....
It sounds like your throwing more weight at the clutch....what are you running for rollers? What do you have for weights?
I think the HE system is designed for 6 psi right?
It also sounds like your trying to tune clutching for trail and for powder pulls on the hill...I never pay attention to trail rpm's as they do not matter to me....
I tune for powder pulls at around 8500 feet, as that is the heart of my riding....I generally pull more rpm's on ride in on trail (couple hundred) as I am only at 6,000 feet on trails in....but spot on at 8500 feet....
Gonna need some more details....
For me though (warning entering opinion) I do not like anymore weight or spring pressure than is needed....because back shifting is imperative to a great mountain sled....so, I try and tune with profiles and angles before weights and stronger springs....
Afr's are just an indicator of other issues....what is your peak or optimal boost level 6-7 psi?
Sea level is 6 psi, Ulmer says you can take it up to 10 psi at 8000 feet and above.
It sounds like your throwing more weight at the clutch....what are you running for rollers? What do you have for weights?
The rollers are stock and the wieghts are stock filled with 2.5 at the heal and then 4.5 and 4.5. All of this was a clutch kit from Ulmer.
I think the HE system is designed for 6 psi right?
6 psi at Sea level 8psi at 6000 feet or higher and 10 psi at 8000 feet or higher
It also sounds like your trying to tune clutching for trail and for powder pulls on the hill...I never pay attention to trail rpm's as they do not matter to me....
I could care less about the trail, but that is the only place it runs half way good. I would rather be close to the rev limiter on the trail and be spot on in the snow. I went to the big horns thinking the set up would be closer then it was so I had very limited resources to change it then.
I tune for powder pulls at around 8500 feet, as that is the heart of my riding....I generally pull more rpm's on ride in on trail (couple hundred) as I am only at 6,000 feet on trails in....but spot on at 8500 feet....
Gonna need some more details....
For me though (warning entering opinion) I do not like anymore weight or spring pressure than is needed....because back shifting is imperative to a great mountain sled....so, I try and tune with profiles and angles before weights and stronger springs....
Sea level is 6 psi, Ulmer says you can take it up to 10 psi at 8000 feet and above.
It sounds like your throwing more weight at the clutch....what are you running for rollers? What do you have for weights?
The rollers are stock and the wieghts are stock filled with 2.5 at the heal and then 4.5 and 4.5. All of this was a clutch kit from Ulmer.
I think the HE system is designed for 6 psi right?
6 psi at Sea level 8psi at 6000 feet or higher and 10 psi at 8000 feet or higher
It also sounds like your trying to tune clutching for trail and for powder pulls on the hill...I never pay attention to trail rpm's as they do not matter to me....
I could care less about the trail, but that is the only place it runs half way good. I would rather be close to the rev limiter on the trail and be spot on in the snow. I went to the big horns thinking the set up would be closer then it was so I had very limited resources to change it then.
I tune for powder pulls at around 8500 feet, as that is the heart of my riding....I generally pull more rpm's on ride in on trail (couple hundred) as I am only at 6,000 feet on trails in....but spot on at 8500 feet....
Gonna need some more details....
For me though (warning entering opinion) I do not like anymore weight or spring pressure than is needed....because back shifting is imperative to a great mountain sled....so, I try and tune with profiles and angles before weights and stronger springs....
mbarryracing
TY 4 Stroke God
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2007
- Messages
- 1,922
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Springville NY
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2006 Yamaha Attak Turbo
2015 SR Viper RTX-DX
1996 Vmax 600XT
Regarding the AFR, that is too lean for WOT. If your engine isn't running correctly first, then your completely wasting your time tuning the clutching because of inconsistency. Clutching is associated with power output, and at 14 or 15 AFR, you are down and/or all over the place on power for sure...
What fuel are you running?
Next, when does the AFR start to read lean like that? Right away when everything is cool like first time out for the day? or does it take awhile and start after it been running awhile and gets hot?
Hot fuel is less dense and will therefore produce lean conditions. Boiling fuel in the tank is usually the cuplrit, also makes the intank pump fade and drop pressure which also causes a lean condition under boost.
You clutch for either on the trail or in the powder, you will never get best for both worlds in one setup. Pick one to dial it in.
What fuel are you running?
Next, when does the AFR start to read lean like that? Right away when everything is cool like first time out for the day? or does it take awhile and start after it been running awhile and gets hot?
Hot fuel is less dense and will therefore produce lean conditions. Boiling fuel in the tank is usually the cuplrit, also makes the intank pump fade and drop pressure which also causes a lean condition under boost.
You clutch for either on the trail or in the powder, you will never get best for both worlds in one setup. Pick one to dial it in.
YamaMTX said:
It sounds like your experiencing a leak...I would first check the sensor lines to the pcIII...then the lines to the throttle bodies....if not perfectly seated, it is super easy to have the throttle bodies pop off...
I am running 91 octane as recommended.
I believe I can make the sled run lean cold or hot. I did look into the fuel tank once when it was low on gas and didn't notice anything unusual.
I want a set up that works in deep snow, right now it needs to be more responsive and build boost faster and more of it.
What is a good way to find a boost leak other than site or is that it?
I believe I can make the sled run lean cold or hot. I did look into the fuel tank once when it was low on gas and didn't notice anything unusual.
I want a set up that works in deep snow, right now it needs to be more responsive and build boost faster and more of it.
What is a good way to find a boost leak other than site or is that it?
When talking to Ulmer after the first day he didn't say much about the AFR other than it wasn't right and believed all my boost issues where to do with clutching. Which I believe I have clutching issues but for the other issues I'm new to the boosted word so I'm learning and don't know what to do. What I kinda found disapointing is I rode with a few MCX kits and even though they were only hitting 8200 rpms the thing still made full boost and straight up ripped and for one of the sleds it was the first time out. Now I did a lot of searching before buying boost and was stuck between MCX and Ulmer because of there reputation. Anyways, back to solving the problem. Thanks!
First thing is to look at each of the connections...and stress them a little...meaning move them a little for each angle to see if there are and obvious cracks etc. then check the throttle bodies....stress them, I am guessing your leaking there...or on the lines to and from the fuel controller...
towerrigger
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I am running the same kit. On my last trip I followed mtdream's recommendations for clutching and I was really happy with it! Thanks mtdream!! 8BU weights fully loaded, 14.5mm rollers, O-P-O primary spring, EPI purple secondary spring, shockwave set to 1-0. 1.5 turns out. I could have tightened it up a bit, maybe 1 turn out. Also running 19-40 gearing. This was all at 8 pounds. Where is your AFR sensor located? I ran into some false readings from mine this year because I relocated the sensor closer to the turbo instead of right on the curve of the J pipe. I had initially thought that the boost pressure sensor was shot, Ulmer had me start up sled, disconnect hose on intercooler side, push 5 psi through hose with air compressor. AFR's dipped right down to 10-10.5 and almost stalled sled out. You could try this as well to eliminate the MAP sensor.
Towerrigger what kind of issues did you run into when your clutching was off?
My AFR sensor was placed in the "s" pipe that ulmer sent me. He was the one that actually picked the location of the sensor. My exhaust is all under the tunnel.
On your pc111 do you have any pictures of it all hooked up? I found it funny how little the instructions explained how it all plugged in.
My AFR sensor was placed in the "s" pipe that ulmer sent me. He was the one that actually picked the location of the sensor. My exhaust is all under the tunnel.
On your pc111 do you have any pictures of it all hooked up? I found it funny how little the instructions explained how it all plugged in.
towerrigger
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
The only time I really had any issues with the clutching was when I was running the sled around home here. Low elevation. I was overboosting even with the boost controller eliminated. I will post some photos tonight. Where are you pulling power for your AFR gauge? Has it always given you these readings? I have had some different readings from my AFR when I was powering the guage from the ignition pack. I moved it to take power from the DC outlet jack and has been good since.
I really only have about six days of riding on this set up so yep these issues always have been present. When I went to MI it made six pounds of boost like it should but there wasn't a ton of snow. I don't remember off hand where I'm pulling power from but I can check.
would also check your grounds...to make sure they are properly bare metal grounds...Have one buddy who had his bulkhead and tunnel powdercoated, and forgot and grounded to his powdercoating, causing big issues...
Thanks guys! I have a lot to check this week between ideas from you guys and Ulmer I hope to get it figured out soon. Too bad I don't have snow or elevation to go test it.
towerrigger did you have a chance at all to get some pictures?
When you tested your map sensor did you just set your air compressor up to only have 5 pounds in it?
Thanks!
When you tested your map sensor did you just set your air compressor up to only have 5 pounds in it?
Thanks!
