Want HOT hands?..It can be done!!! EDITED FIRST POST

[ROCKERDAN]

Let's cover some basics so we dont pull in 10 different directions.

How did this happen?
The grip part of the ECU is probably the same as RX1.
But handle bars went higher, windshields lower and narrower on average because of the lighter weight structure. and hooks were added.

Why do I not have the perfect fix?
The corporate snowmobile guys probably fought like heck to get the budget they did to get you more heat (replacement bars and harness).
Budget requirements to replace all CPUs (just doing simple guess of sled #s X cost per unit) might be 5 million dollars. To cover that for example to stay at the same (profit, break even or loss) margin you would have to lay off over 100 employees. The corporate bean counters say NO despite what the sled division guys would like to do to make it right.

WTF, why didnt you guys chime in sooner, before I rewired my bars?
Warnings were there early on. But the guys suggesting jump on the bandwagon were 100 times louder. This is an open forum, if what you post does not break any rules, 99.999% of the posts are going to stay.

Conclusion?
Biotching wont do much good, no way to get the budget for perfection. The $30 dollar Port cartridge solution is safe and we may find some other safe ways to improve the situation.

Hi tork..

anychance we can get a new POLL as i spoke of above?....wouldnt that help yammie take notice at least?

thanks
dan

 

[**sj**]

slow morning...just called customer service...this person marilee says I'm only the second person who has called on the 07 update bars failing to be a problem...

she said there is 30 reps and each has maybe received 2 each ...so like 60 calls...
they need more calls explaining the fact the 07 update isnt the correct fix and IF ENOUGH CALL..then they will move forward and make the correct fix...

they also said the engineering dept has confirmed NOT TO do this mod because it WILL eventually cause an ECU FAILURE..

SO AS MANY OF YOU AS POSSIBLE (INCLUDING YOU DAN BECAUSE YOU KNOW SO MANY PEOPLE) PLEASE CALL CUSTOMER SERVICE AND BE NICE AND TELL THEM THE 07' BARS ARE NOT WORKING!

 

[snakes]

Ok Ladies and Gents......Let's start making those calls to Yamaha to voice our concerns.

Customer Relations
(800) 962-7926

Ian: Ext. 7406

If his number is busy or it goes to voicemail talk to another Customer Rep. I think this will be a better way to go then leaving vociemails. If you don't have your Vin # on hand don't worry they will still file your claim.

 

[ejcamaro]

I feel my grips are adequate for me, but even I will call and help out the situation, you said it perfect sj, thanks for letting us know what they said.

 

[mjp2003apex]

87gtNOS wrote
"alright, this got me confused...so adding the rheostat is gonna cause the same load? Or block the load from the grips?"

as far as i can see yes it will still cause the same load. all you will doing is taking away power from the grips, the rheostat or resistor will take the rest, which means still drawing the same amount of power. that is why, if you do the mod you dont want to go past half way.

i dont wnat to upset anybody im just using simple electronics to add it all up.

from what i can tell the headlight is going to draw the most power, 65 watts on high beam, from the machine. do you think the grips draw more then the headlight. i dont, not if you dont turn them up all the way. i didn't do the math.

i also think the "ecu" is just going to "monitor" the voltages, fuel/air mixture, temp, ect and it will send a signal to something else to increase or decrease the voltage for whatever it is being used for. they arent going to build something (ecu) that is on the threshold of failing. its going to be over rated. what if someone plugged the wrong thing into there accessory. is it going to damage the "ecu", i think not, they have safety measures (over rate parts, fuse panels). think about all the calls they would have of people saying "i plugged my cell phone in (or whatever) and now my sled wont run." if you short out (over load) your accessory it blows a fuse, not damage the "ecu". same thing with the grips, if they start to fail and draw too much, a fuse will blow. if they did it any other way, you would have melted wires and fire and they arent going to build it like that. that is what the fuse panel is for, other wise you would have burnt up sleds on the trail, all the time. haven't seen that yet.

from what i can tell and the amount of them done i would think people would be saying, " i did it, but it keeps blowing fuses now", and that doesnt seem to be the case, therefore i feel it is within the specs of the system. the minute you draw too much, pop goes the fuse!!! bottom line.
if the all mighty "ecu" is that sensative it would have shut the grips off or blown the first time you changed the set up.

yamaha is going to say not to do the fix, that is the only thing they can say right now. that is like all companies, with there products.

so enough of that.

i also talked with my local dealer and they have no idea, they like the sound of the fix but cant say anything.

for the poll.
i did the mod('06 bars on my '07) good to go, dont turn them up.
thanks again machzed!!!
and will call the rep, to complain.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Hey guys..

I also just made the call....(800-962-7926 yamaha USA)they know me well!..LOL.

I asked and they said they have started to get more calls on this issue....

I said i was not happy at all with paying for the bars in the first place,then them not producing enough bars,then them not working!...

I also was sure to say that I bought these bars,and they SHOULD carry another year warrantee on these new bars(since we are now off warrentee on sleds)and I want them FIXED NOW!

I also said that many are doing MODS to make them hotter,and they had heard NOTHING about that or any so called bulletin.

I will keep mine wired this way and ride with them on low setting...

PLEASE EVERYONE CALL....no matter what your particular VIEW is on this matter,PLEASE MAKE THE CALL,it only will HELP everyone !...

there is power in numbers,and this thread proves it!...if hundreds of us call we will get something!...they had only had a few calls but said that more calls on bars being cold are now coming in...so you are doing it,just keep it up!..everyone who owns a 06 or 07 needs to do this...dont just think it wont matter...it will!

Dan

 

[87gtNOS]

So mjp2003apex, you are telling me that if I installed an 8ohm Rheostat(turned down) in the positive line of the harness, before the grips, it will still put the same load on the ECU?
With 06 in parallel we have 1.1 ohms, 131W and 11A. SO now stick a 8 ohm resistor in front of that, what happens? You are basically wiring a resistor in SERIES with it....




ALSO, has anyone taken their 06 bars and simply wired them in SERIES and connected them DIRECTLY to a 12v battery? Do they get hot?

 

[ROCKERDAN]

So mjp2003apex, you are telling me that if I installed an 8ohm Rheostat(turned down) in the positive line of the harness, before the grips, it will still put the same load on the ECU?
With 06 in parallel we have 1.1 ohms, 131W and 11A. SO now stick a 8 ohm resistor in front of that, what happens? You are basically wiring a resistor in SERIES with it....




ALSO, has anyone taken their 06 bars and simply wired them in SERIES and connected them DIRECTLY to a 12v battery? Do they get hot?

Jon...you will get check engine light that way...but they might be hot,should be as hot as hot grips designed them to be right?

I dont think you can simlpy put a rheostat into the hot line of wiring(yell)...i think the ECU is wired into the system differently..and also the thumbwarmer is involved too....I got check engine lights anytime i tried to wire it any other way....

I still think we will be OK if kept turned down...I dont beleive there is a shortening of ECU LIFE as some have noted.....but this is only my 2 cents and i could be wrong....I truly think yamaha MUST help out with this,cause we are gonna do whatever we want to make our hands not freeze,and if yamaha knows for sure this will cause a major issue,then they had better come forward with a bulletin and stick it right here,where we all can read it...if it does exist,it would be here,just like other bulletins in past....this is where the mod started,so this is where the bulletin should be,if they truly are worried about ECUs.

just my opinion boys...
dan

 

[Turtle]

OK guys ... I've been watching this thread for a few weeks, and have kept quiet up until now. I am an electrical engineer (who doesn't work for Yamaha) and here is my take on this.

The reason why the '06 bars work with the '07 harness is simple as Machzed orignially posted. Because the '07 harness puts them in parallel, thus increase the power used by each grip.

The reason this doesn't work with the '07 bars is because the heaters used by the '07 bars have a greater resistance to them. The amount of power used by the '07 grips wired in parallel is almost equivalent to the power used by the '06 bars wired in series.

The reason Yamaha did things this way was because they thought the problem with the cold bars had something to do with the solid aluminum hooks. They therefore made a bar that had the hooks integrated and then used a longer heater element. But the power usage stayed the same. Turns out they were both right and wrong. The aluminum hooks did act as heat sinks. So by getting rid of them they made an improvement, but they still needed more power.

Now regarding the issue of burning up the CPU with doing the '06 mod with the '07 harness..... I personally would not do this as Yamaha as indicated that the extra current draw through the CPU will cause damage. And here is my explaination why. I'll try to keep this explained as simply as possible, so try and keep up.

The voltage source to the grips is a 12V source. The adjustment of the grips is not made by simply varying the voltage. The grips work by a step signal source. The voltage source is actually alway 12V, but it is in a sense turned "on and off". When the grip setting is low, the on and off occurs slowly. When the grip setting is high, the on and off occurs more quickly, thus resulting in more heat. This is controlled by something similar to a 555 timer circuit in the CPU. Because the source is stepped to control the heat, the 12V is never changed. And since the 12V never changes, the amount of current draw never changes. And this is why Yamaha is probably not recommending this change due to the current draw.

The only way to get around this problem is to wire the '06 bars in parallel, then install a resistor in series with the paralleled grips. This will reduce the total current draw through the CPU. It will however reduce the power going to the grips. But you could size the resistor so that the grips still put out adequate heat when set on high. However, this still may end up in too much current drawn through the CPU.

You can see what I mean in the pics attached below. I took an scope and measured the source signal. You can see when the grips are set at low, the signal has a slower setp than when it is set at high. But the voltage remains at 12V all the time.

Do with this information as you like ..... But that is just a lowly engineer's opinion.

 

[87gtNOS]

wired in series is ohms + ohms
1.1 ohms(06 bars in parallel) + 8ohms (rheostat) = 9 ohms

then for watts = 12^2 / 9 = 16w
then for amps = 16/12 = 1.3 amps

that is at lowest setting on rheostat and highest on guage...

wrong???

 

[ROCKERDAN]

OK guys ... I've been watching this thread for a few weeks, and have kept quiet up until now. I am an electrical engineer (who doesn't work for Yamaha) and here is my take on this.

The reason why the '06 bars work with the '07 harness is simple as Machzed orignially posted. Because the '07 harness puts them in parallel, thus increase the power used by each grip.

The reason this doesn't work with the '07 bars is because the heaters used by the '07 bars have a greater resistance to them. The amount of power used by the '07 grips wired in parallel is almost equivalent to the power used by the '06 bars wired in series.

The reason Yamaha did things this way was because they thought the problem with the cold bars had something to do with the solid aluminum hooks. They therefore made a bar that had the hooks integrated and then used a longer heater element. But the power usage stayed the same. Turns out they were both right and wrong. The aluminum hooks did act as heat sinks. So by getting rid of them they made an improvement, but they still needed more power.

Now regarding the issue of burning up the CPU with doing the '06 mod with the '07 harness..... I personally would not do this as Yamaha as indicated that the extra current draw through the CPU will cause damage. And here is my explaination why. I'll try to keep this explained as simply as possible, so try and keep up.

The voltage source to the grips is a 12V source. The adjustment of the grips is not made by simply varying the voltage. The grips work by a step signal source. The voltage source is actually alway 12V, but it is in a sense turned "on and off". When the grip setting is low, the on and off occurs slowly. When the grip setting is high, the on and off occurs more quickly, thus resulting in more heat. This is controlled by something similar to a 555 timer circuit in the CPU. Because the source is stepped to control the heat, the 12V is never changed. And since the 12V never changes, the amount of current draw never changes. And this is why Yamaha is probably not recommending this change due to the current draw.

The only way to get around this problem is to wire the '06 bars in parallel, then install a resistor in series with the paralleled grips. This will reduce the total current draw through the CPU. It will however reduce the power going to the grips. But you could size the resistor so that the grips still put out adequate heat when set on high. However, this still may end up in too much current drawn through the CPU.

You can see what I mean in the pics attached below. I took an scope and measured the source signal. You can see when the grips are set at low, the signal has a slower setp than when it is set at high. But the voltage remains at 12V all the time.

Do with this information as you like ..... But that is just a lowly engineer's opinion.

great post...thank you!....so the stock levels switch we have is a TIMED switch,which sends pulses either slower or faster for colder or hotter...this is good to know.

So,You do feel even if left on LOW setting,that damage could occur to ECU?...if so why havent any of us had anything go wrong yet?...is it a sure thing or is this just a remote chance something MAY happen?..i really dont want ANYONE to have an issue here..and would feel somewhat responsible.

thanks for your wisdom
dan

 

[f7 addict]

Hey guys..

I also just made the call....(800-962-7926 yamaha USA)they know me well!..LOL.

I asked and they said they have started to get more calls on this issue....

I said i was not happy at all with paying for the bars in the first place,then them not producing enough bars,then them not working!...

I also was sure to say that I bought these bars,and they SHOULD carry another year warrantee on these new bars(since we are now off warrentee on sleds)and I want them FIXED NOW!

I also said that many are doing MODS to make them hotter,and they had heard NOTHING about that or any so called bulletin.

I will keep mine wired this way and ride with them on low setting...

PLEASE EVERYONE CALL....no matter what your particular VIEW is on this matter,PLEASE MAKE THE CALL,it only will HELP everyone !...

there is power in numbers,and this thread proves it!...if hundreds of us call we will get something!...they had only had a few calls but said that more calls on bars being cold are now coming in...so you are doing it,just keep it up!..everyone who owns a 06 or 07 needs to do this...dont just think it wont matter...it will!

Dan

just made my call! said to have my dealer check the bar. possible element problem. this sucks.

 

[Turtle]

great post...thank you!....so the stock levels switch we have is a TIMED switch,which sends pulses either slower or faster for colder or hotter...this is good to know.

So,You do feel even if left on LOW setting,that damage could occur to ECU?...if so why havent any of us had anything go wrong yet?...is it a sure thing or is this just a remote chance something MAY happen?..i really dont want ANYONE to have an issue here..and would feel somewhat responsible.

thanks for your wisdom
dan

Yes - that is exactly right ... the voltage supplied to the grips is a TIMED switch sending a pulse that is either faster or slower depending on the heat setting.

So when you have the grips at a low setting, the timing is slow, but the voltage is still at 12V, therefore still resulting in a high current draw through the CPU. I can't say for certain that this will still damage the CPU when on low settings because I don't know what the current capacity of the CPU is. But someone at Yamaha seems to think so.

 

[mjp2003apex]

i would thinka fuse would pop. they are not going to make a machine that could start on fire or die because some foolish customer tried to wire his gps threw his accessory. they have safety features, otherwise they would not be able to sell the machines.

gade-thrasher
looking at the scope it looks like the voltage is dropping, otherwise it wouldnt look like a square wave. i may not see the pulsing in pic. with the digital scope, too slow. if its not, then the current draw is always the same, you are just changing the pulse speed. the higher the setting the faster it pulses. "pwm" pulse width modulation.

my bottom line, is i cant see someone building a peace of equipment that doesn't have safety features (fuses). i would think there would have to be a fuse for the grip circuit, if there is then there should be no worries about doing the mod, if the circuit is overloaded, then pop goes the fuse. i would have to check my book, the grips may not have its own dedicated fuse, but i garauntee it has a fuse somewhere on the fuse panel. anything electric on the machine is going to be fused somewhere (safety!!).

otherwise there would be burnt up machines all over the place, shorted helmet visor, water in the tail light, shorted grips, plugging the tv into the accessory. but no, it blows a fuse on the machine.

anways, im going to call yamaha now. i'll post what they said.

 

[87gtNOS]

I would say there is no fuse, but the ECU will instead trip the grip warmer code and shut off power to the grips should the load get too great??