WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? FASTER THAN A TURBO CAT

[kviper]

I could be wrong but everything I have read or been told they come out of the box at 11-12 lb. Head flow due to only being a twin? Turbo system efficientcy? Big displacement in less cylinder's usually = lower RPM. Being a Dyno measures Torque and RPM and the computer calculates HP from there a lower HP number will be shown from Cat's 8,000 RPM. That still does not add up though due to it's NA HP number at I assume roughly the same RPM. HP is only an indicator of where the power is made and what the power is doing through the RPM range. Remember though an Apex power is measured at roughly 8,500 RPM.

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch
Sorry if I offended you and I will try to be more sensitive in the future however you laughed at my post first (LOL).

I did and point taken!

If you look at the times the Apex ET was down at the 60MPH mark and did not loose anything after and was starting to gain by 1,000'. Hard condition's and the Apex would have ETed much better in comparison and it would have been light's out on top end.

Which was my point different day different results. But that is not what happened and everything you bring up is conjecture on your part. Which brings up the if the Apex was clutched and geared different it would win. But on the same line of thinking if the Cat was clutched and geared differently it would win! Which again was a point I brought up. We can go round and round in the sand box forever on that and get nowhere.

I don't follow your comment about RPM the Apex run's and not being a fair comparison? There has never been a sled classification based on RPM,
PERIOD! Apex power is measured from the PTO, Aprox 8,500 RPM.

The pto is spinning 8,500ish the motor is still spinning 11,000 plus. I not saying its fair or not or that there is or even should be a rpm class, but the Apex has to spin that high to make that kind of hp. If the motor spun 8,500 without a gear reducer 160hp would not be attained. I only pointed it out as it is being said that all these other sleds of larger displacement can't make the same hp as the Apex. The Nytro then falls into that catagory. Only 130hp from a larger motor! Why? I think I explained that!

The thing I like about the shoot out is you hardly ever run into a new Cat that isn't jacked. Why is that?

Because its just so easy and cheap to do! Why not!

The Cat has a power adder and will not be run in the same class as an Apex at any sanctioned event.

Ahhh looks like the same fear that tried to keep the RX from running against 700cc two strokes prevails!

And the way it looks you will need to spend $1,000- $1,500? for a High
Jacker + clutching to beat a good running Apex.

So a good running Apex. How did it get that way? No tweaking? just kept running them till you find one? Puzzling when you say that because it imply's that you just can't take any Apex then?

But no to beat an Apex just a stock against stock sled. Remember the article that started this whole thread. Apex beat in the quarter and 2,000ft.

We can argue this till the cows come home but the point will still be the same. The sleds are close in hp and in performance. As far as I'm concerned they are in the same class as hyper sleds.

You may call the Cat a Dog all you want its a free world but I don't agree!

Yamaha entered this whole fray with an RX running against 700cc sleds and was called a Dog I didn't agree then either!

Nothing has changed!

 

[fourload]

The sleds are too close to call!!! I have witnessed quite a few lake runs with my friend's stock 11 Apex SE vs 10,11 and 12 Turbo's long and short track models. When they are set up with the same ripsaw track and studs the Apex is always out front at the end of the long lake run!!! They are real close in the acceleration dept. but the Apex starts to walk on the top end!!! The 12's seem a little slower than the 11's on the top end !!!. Hyjack the AC and it is all over!!! The Apex is a giant overachiever considering its weight and 20+less hp!!!

 

[kviper]

Sasquatch
I will say it again! I never said or implied that the Apex in the test should have been clutched or geared for the shoot out, Again it was in response to a post stating the Apex was not quick! I simply pointed out a couple thing's that make them run considerably stronger!

Your thought on the Apex HP is incorrect if I understood you correctly. A Dyno only knows what the shaft feeding it is doing. A Dyno does not DIRECTLY measure HP, it measures Torque and RPM, then it uses a simple equasion to calculate HP. (Torque X RPM divided by 5252= HP) Being that the PTO speed is 8,500 RPM that is where the HP number comes from not the motor RPM. If you Dynoed the Apex motor from the crank you would get a lower Torque number and higher HP number but that is not what the clutch is using. And the 11/12 Apex's are making low 150's for power not 160.

Power adder! Are aftermarket pipes, porting or nitrous allowed in a stock class? Is a triple piped 700 allowed to run in a 700 single pipe twin class? NO! So why would a Turbo 1,100 run against a NA 1,000. I don't need
excuses as in out of the box form the Apex runs with it. Point being for what the Cat is it is lame.

Maybe instead of saying good running I should say proper. I am sure you know the variables in performance from one sled to another from any brand, every now and then you find one that is just not as strong.

The NA 1,100 cat does not produce the power that the Vector or especially the Nytro makes, 10-15 less.
Then they add 12 LB boost and come up with a gain of approximately 55 HP, less than 5 HP/LB boost.
That is lame in the boost world!

A typical Yamaha gains roughly 10HP/LB boost!

My Mustang gained 125 rear wheel HP from 8 LB.

Just saying, it is what it is!

Don't shoot the messenger!

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch
I will say it again! I never said or implied that the Apex in the test should have been clutched or geared for the shoot out, Again it was in response to a post stating the Apex was not quick! I simply pointed out a couple thing's that make them run considerably stronger!

And I responded to the post saying the Cat was slow. It only needed clutching and gearing as well. How is that any different?

Your thought on the Apex HP is incorrect if I understood you correctly. A Dyno only knows what the shaft feeding it is doing. A Dyno does not DIRECTLY measure HP, it measures Torque and RPM, then it uses a simple equasion to calculate HP. (Torque X RPM divided by 5252= HP) Being that the PTO speed is 8,500 RPM that is where the HP number comes from not the motor RPM. If you Dynoed the Apex motor from the crank you would get a lower Torque number and higher HP number but that is not what the clutch is using. And the 11/12 Apex's are making low 150's for power not 160.

I know how a dyno works! But no matter what you say the motor is turning 11,000 rpm (this why I love the big Yami, the sound of the 4 cylinder at full song is intoxicating). Its torque if I remember right is only 70 something ft pds at that rpm (this still equates to 160 hp). The multiplication of the gear reducer increases the torque on the pto at 8,500, even though the torque multipy's the hp stays the same unlike you believe a gear reducer changes torque only. This would make you incorrect. Do the math!

The Apex motor at 8500 does not even make 120hp. Even if you change the cams your down to NA Cat or Nytro hp ratings. Again the Apex engine has to spin at 11,000 plus rpm to make 160 hp! This is an increase from earlier version that spun 10,600 ish. The gear reduction ratio was changed at the same time.

If that does not explain why the Apex can make 160hp from 998cc and why the Nytro only makes 130hp from 1050 then I give up.

Power adder! Are aftermarket pipes, porting or nitrous allowed in a stock class

Stock is stock! As long as the Factory adds power with porting, pipes, cams, EFI its stock. To me adding a turbo is just factory added performance no different then what Yami has been doing to the RX since 03.

I do not for sure know what boost the Cat makes stock. I have only your word on it but it seems to be close as the Cats where running 24pds boost to make just over 300 at Pinawa! So to gain 180hp from the NA Cat they where using 24pds boost or 7.5hp per pound of boost.

Maybe Yami will build a turbo and show them how its done. Till then the Cat builds a factory turbo for the trails. I think that is pretty Cool!

 

[pwa]

 

[pwa]

I think the overall thought is an Apex shouldn't be running with any sled running 12lb. of boost. To see it run right with and even pull more top end is worth bragging about. You can go from there on a bunch of internet racing, but the fact is they are all close and the Cat is not impressive out of the box for what it is running. Anyone know why they get such little horsepower out of the 12lb's of boost?

Agree, they must have major clutching problems. I think the engine is working but how many hp do you plant on the snow?

 

[stopdropanroll]

I think the overall thought is an Apex shouldn't be running with any sled running 12lb. of boost. To see it run right with and even pull more top end is worth bragging about. You can go from there on a bunch of internet racing, but the fact is they are all close and the Cat is not impressive out of the box for what it is running. Anyone know why they get such little horsepower out of the 12lb's of boost?

Agree, they must have major clutching problems. I think the engine is working but how many hp do you plant on the snow?

You are correct. We have had some clutching efficiency issues this year, belts slipping and creating high amounts of heat, many have shimmed the primary and other fine tuning of the clutching with excellent results. "Rocker Dan" who is also a fellow TY'r has had awesome speed results with a little work on his F1100 Turbo. Plain and simple the AC is fast, but Cat missed the mark on a few things in the clutching department. hope it gets changed for 2013 and we can once again have this conversation next year.

I wouldn't even comment on this thread if I had not personally rode both sleds back to back in real world riding. My buddies 2011 Apex XTX is a very nice machine and is a major improvement over the previous Apex's, but, I prefer the new AC chassis any day, it IMO is better in almost every area of chassis, comfort, handling, and performance then the Apex, only my opinion and others may disagree. Kudos for the Apex in this test to run with the turbo.

 

[slimjim2525]

Not sure about their results for the speeds of a Cat vs Apex. I have an 11 apex. My buddy has a 12 cat 1100 turbo. We dragged six times. 3 with me on my sled and switched for 3. Same results each time. The apex pulled the cat right out of the hole and we stayed that way the hole 1000 feet. The cats ski was on the apex bumper all the way for the drag. So the apex got it out of the hole and both sleds pulled equal. Maybe there is a little turbo lag, not sure. But one thing is for sure. That is damn impressive for a 678 pound naturally aspirated sled giving up 30hp to a lighter sled.

 

[burgerbone]

 

[kviper]

I guess you can see it any way you want, The number's seen on the Dyno reflect the PTO at 8,500 RPM and that is what the clutch uses. motor's make power at different RPM and i don't see how that is relevant. Cam it and tune it the same as the R-1 and you are not far from 200HP at near the same RPM.

Nytro motor is a totally different motor, longer stroke, bigger boar and less cylinder's. Due to it's configuration it makes more torque at lower RPM than an Apex.

Apparently the aftermarket has been able to improve the efficientcy but still not the best at 7.5 HP/LB boost if that is what it is.

Good thing there are rule's in racing or we would have only one class! A 700 triple piped triple is not classed with a 700 single piped triple even though they both came from the factory that way.There is a
reason for that!

How does a Turbo compare to anything Yamaha has done to the RX/Apex? Fuel injection is not considered a power adder, Changing any form of timing, Intake runners, Compression, EXUP are not considered power adder's. Nitrous, supercharger's, Turbo's ARE considered power adder's. Huge difference

 

[pwa]

I guess you can see it any way you want, The number's seen on the Dyno reflect the PTO at 8,500 RPM and that is what the clutch uses. motor's make power at different RPM and i don't see how that is relevant. Cam it and tune it the same as the R-1 and you are not far from 200HP at near the same RPM.

Nytro motor is a totally different motor, longer stroke, bigger boar and less cylinder's. Due to it's configuration it makes more torque at lower RPM than an Apex.

Apparently the aftermarket has been able to improve the efficientcy but still not the best at 7.5 HP/LB boost if that is what it is.

Good thing there are rule's in racing or we would have only one class! A 700 triple piped triple is not classed with a 700 single piped triple even though they both came from the factory that way.There is a
reason for that!

How does a Turbo compare to anything Yamaha has done to the RX/Apex? Fuel injection is not considered a power adder, Changing any form of timing, Intake runners, Compression, EXUP are not considered power adder's. Nitrous, supercharger's, Turbo's ARE considered power adder's. Huge difference

4 cylinders against 2 is a power adder (but you are talking about rules from some stupid 1/4 mile racing). As you seen in Formula One or MotoGP, RPM's is the #*$&@. So if Yamaha takes away two cylinders from their Apex and Cat takes away their turbo then they can compete is that what you are saying?

I think this discussion is silly, Cat comes with a turbo and Apex comes with 4 cylinders. If you want the XTX configuration with 4 cylinders then you buy an Apex if you think -100 lbs and more HP is more important then you buy a Cat. I see many stupid comments about the bigger displacement on the Cat but come on I rather take an 998 cc 4 cylinder before an 1065 two cylinders any day if I want HP out of the machine. RPM's still the #*$&@.

I wonder what figures most ppl use, the acceleration or top speed? My M8 is very slow if you compare to a SRX 700. The SRX 700 has rough +140 hp and my M8 maybe 155 (+160 if you listen to some, on a good day and the sun in you're back). But the interesting thing is what is it built for? 1000 ft straight forward if that was the case I would never buy a sled, not a doo, not a poo, not a cat or Yamaha. Never.

What I think is interesting is that Cat Turbo seems to get so little out of their Turbo if you compare to F8 or Apex. But that must be configuration nothing else.

This is not about drag racing on grass this is Stock machines made for snow more or less directly from the factory.

 

[pwa]

Something is funny here!!!

Cat Turbo vs F8 1320 ft +2 mph
Cat Turbo vs F8 1000 ft +5 mph
Cat Turbo vs F8 660 ft +3 mph

They missed with the F8 on the 1000 ft run.

 

[Sasquatch]

I guess you can see it any way you want, The number's seen on the Dyno reflect the PTO at 8,500 RPM and that is what the clutch uses. motor's make power at different RPM and i don't see how that is relevant. Cam it and tune it the same as the R-1 and you are not far from 200HP at near the same RPM.

Sigh! It was you that said you could not understand how and why a 1050cc motor does not make the same power as the Apex. All I tried to do was explain the difference. As the math is lost on you and you do not understand the relationship between torque and hp, I give up.

Nytro motor is a totally different motor, longer stroke, bigger boar and less cylinder's. Due to it's configuration it makes more torque at lower RPM than an Apex.

Of course it does! But do you really understand why?

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch
If you Dynoed the Apex motor from the crank you would get a lower Torque number and higher HP number but that is not what the clutch is using. And the 11/12 Apex's are making low 150's for power not 160.

I have seen dyno results at 162! As the Apex motor was making 152 in 2006 and there has been cam changes, port changes, pipe changes and gear reducer changes I find it hard to believe after all that the hp has stayed the same!

So are you saying Yamaha has lied to us?

Here is one dyno test.