SuperStroker!
Pro
The ECP kit has to work, if you approach increased HP from minimizing intake restriction to air. If the engine takes in more air, its efficiency improves and the result is more HP.
The addition of the optimized bellows springs for the CV carbs, gets the slide out of the way at the right time and that is good thing! All of the steps ECP took are standard, off the shelf changes that have been making power in motorcycles for years. ECP optimized the filters, springs, jets and plugs for you, on a state of the art dyno and put it in an easy to understand and install package.
Folks, this aint rocket science for a guy like Freddie so just get your clutch tune-up where it needs to be to utilize the extra power and enjoy it!
However, consider the following as a friendly and informative caution!
No performance mod in IMHO works perfect, all of the time and in all conditions! This is the caveat that exists with modifying a factory component to improve its performance.
I'm not saying the factory is perfect and any thing we do to improve factory performance is inherintly flawed. We simply need to consider the time and overall engineering and testing in varying conditions that the factory does to test the OVERALL performance of their product, before it is released to the customer. I'm also not claiming ECP didn't do all climate/condition testing on its filter and EVAC product, I don't know...
However, in looking at the product, seeing the system installed on sleds I will say this; if I was a lake racer or a groomed/fast trail rider, I'd have the system on my sled! No question about it, done deal.
If I were expecting to encounter a lot of snow dust, deep powder or push a lot of heavy snow, I'd opt for the stock air box!
Why, because in my experience, every time I used K&N filters on any of my performance trail sleds, even with the dust socks on, I eventually had issues with freezing, moisture and restriction on very cold days or on very long rides!
Ya see, YOU CANT FILTER OUT WATER VAPOR and water vapor gets deposited on the filter socks and in the elements, and freezes. Water vapor obviously comes from snow dust melting on hot underhood engine surfaces and getting sucked into the filters. Further, water vapor and snow dust combine to make this situation even worse.
This causes air restriction, which wil cause an inconsistant fuel ratio, which makes your sled run good one minute and seem to dog out the next...intermittently.
Granted, since the pipes are behind the engine and the carbs are in front on an RX-1, this may be less of an issue but it remains as a question mark in my mind with this type of modification for a snowmobile application.
Since I'm a performance junky, none of this would stop me from purchasing the ECP kit and using it most of the time, but be warned, there may be times when you wished you kept the stock air box, with its factory designed channels to control water removal and drainage. You'll know when this happens!
After all, where do you think most of the condensate you're draining from the EVAC system comes from? It's being ingested through the carbs and exhausted through the crankcase.
The addition of the optimized bellows springs for the CV carbs, gets the slide out of the way at the right time and that is good thing! All of the steps ECP took are standard, off the shelf changes that have been making power in motorcycles for years. ECP optimized the filters, springs, jets and plugs for you, on a state of the art dyno and put it in an easy to understand and install package.
Folks, this aint rocket science for a guy like Freddie so just get your clutch tune-up where it needs to be to utilize the extra power and enjoy it!
However, consider the following as a friendly and informative caution!
No performance mod in IMHO works perfect, all of the time and in all conditions! This is the caveat that exists with modifying a factory component to improve its performance.
I'm not saying the factory is perfect and any thing we do to improve factory performance is inherintly flawed. We simply need to consider the time and overall engineering and testing in varying conditions that the factory does to test the OVERALL performance of their product, before it is released to the customer. I'm also not claiming ECP didn't do all climate/condition testing on its filter and EVAC product, I don't know...
However, in looking at the product, seeing the system installed on sleds I will say this; if I was a lake racer or a groomed/fast trail rider, I'd have the system on my sled! No question about it, done deal.
If I were expecting to encounter a lot of snow dust, deep powder or push a lot of heavy snow, I'd opt for the stock air box!
Why, because in my experience, every time I used K&N filters on any of my performance trail sleds, even with the dust socks on, I eventually had issues with freezing, moisture and restriction on very cold days or on very long rides!
Ya see, YOU CANT FILTER OUT WATER VAPOR and water vapor gets deposited on the filter socks and in the elements, and freezes. Water vapor obviously comes from snow dust melting on hot underhood engine surfaces and getting sucked into the filters. Further, water vapor and snow dust combine to make this situation even worse.
This causes air restriction, which wil cause an inconsistant fuel ratio, which makes your sled run good one minute and seem to dog out the next...intermittently.
Granted, since the pipes are behind the engine and the carbs are in front on an RX-1, this may be less of an issue but it remains as a question mark in my mind with this type of modification for a snowmobile application.
Since I'm a performance junky, none of this would stop me from purchasing the ECP kit and using it most of the time, but be warned, there may be times when you wished you kept the stock air box, with its factory designed channels to control water removal and drainage. You'll know when this happens!
After all, where do you think most of the condensate you're draining from the EVAC system comes from? It's being ingested through the carbs and exhausted through the crankcase.
Well I dont know if the stock box is much better. I cleaned out the stock box dried out the moisture out of the element went riding again same ditch banging and 1.5 hr later it started acting up again open up air box and the air breather element and the box is full of snow and ice again. Never had this issue with any other sled I have owned. Not very well designed for a mountain sled where everything is deep powder.
Stroker,
Great summary.
Last weekend: Cold, lots of powder entering the chassis, my filters froze up, and I had a huge loss in power. Today: minimal powder, temps in the teens and the giddy-up from the filters (not to mention the sound) was really fun.
I've got the evac, but I know some don't use it as they feel that running moist air from the crank into the carbs should be avoided. Doesn't it make sense that moisture in the crank exhaust may also conrtibute the filters freezing up on cold/powdery days? On the other hand, IF moisture from the crank does contribute to the k&n's icing up under certain conditions, wouldn't the kit-provided breather filter also possibly freeze up in those same conditions?
So, can anything more be done when using Freddie's kit on cold/snowy days to help eliminate the ice ups?
1. Any way to get more moisture out of the crank exhaust before it hits the filters?
2. Short of something as crude as duct tape, any way to keep more snow out of the chassis? Looking at the accessories catelog, it almost appears that the replacement colored grille inserts include a white pre-fiter. Is it there or did they just use a white backgound for the photos?
Any thoughts?
Great summary.
Last weekend: Cold, lots of powder entering the chassis, my filters froze up, and I had a huge loss in power. Today: minimal powder, temps in the teens and the giddy-up from the filters (not to mention the sound) was really fun.
I've got the evac, but I know some don't use it as they feel that running moist air from the crank into the carbs should be avoided. Doesn't it make sense that moisture in the crank exhaust may also conrtibute the filters freezing up on cold/powdery days? On the other hand, IF moisture from the crank does contribute to the k&n's icing up under certain conditions, wouldn't the kit-provided breather filter also possibly freeze up in those same conditions?
So, can anything more be done when using Freddie's kit on cold/snowy days to help eliminate the ice ups?
1. Any way to get more moisture out of the crank exhaust before it hits the filters?
2. Short of something as crude as duct tape, any way to keep more snow out of the chassis? Looking at the accessories catelog, it almost appears that the replacement colored grille inserts include a white pre-fiter. Is it there or did they just use a white backgound for the photos?
Any thoughts?
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
Yamaha said:
I have been told the same thing by MANY riders.
The prefilters sold with my air kits are water repellant...not 100% waterproof. Take your hand like I did and insert inside the pre filter. Then run it under some tap water. Your hand will not get very wet if at all.
I have never tried this, but what do you think about spraying on some of that waterproofing/stainproofing stuff like you use on the interior of your vehicles and couches and the like? Of course it would be nice to know if this slows air movement or disallows it.
Superstroker has some good words of wisdom there. Thanks for you thoughts.
Freddie
SuperStroker!
Pro
Nylon is hygroscopic...
Pre-filters were designed to trap dust, such as a sandy eviornment..like desert riding. The fiber used to manufacture the pre filters is Nylon. Nylon is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water. When it absorbs water into its matrix, (Matrix is the internal structure of the fiber itself) the matrix expands. When the Fiber grows from expansion, that tightens the mesh and eventually restricts. But thats not what we're talking about here.
Take a vacuum cleaner hose and drape the pre-filter over the end. Turn on the vacuum cleaner, stick it in water and see what happens! You'll suck the water right through the mesh. But again, this is extreme and still different from what I pointed out above.
Water vapor is what I think causes the problem in this case. Water vapor in the form of humidity and (humidity causes your lawn, car windshield etc., to look like it has actually snowed on some extreme mornings...at least promt you to scrape the windshield before driving away.) steam from snow dust hitting hot engine surfaces and subsequently being drawn THROUGH the fiber mesh of the pre-filter and the mesh of the main air filter. This vapor is in the form of a gas (water or steam and air) and interestingly enough, is one of the gasses that can sublime (sublime means to go from a gas directly to a solid, without stoping in the liquid phase first).
Now couple this with the heat of vaporization (Heat of Vaporization is the consumption of ambient heat to vaporize a liquid. All liquids have a HoV point and alcohol for example, requires a much higher energy input to vaporize vs- gas) and subsequent loss of ambient heat, actually below the atmospheric temperature, (because of heat of vaporization) do to the the venturi effect of the carbs, (which is fairly minimal on a Mikuni carb, compared to a Holley for example) and you have the perfect conditions for freeze closing the mesh on the pre-filter and the main air filter. This is why snowmobiles generally do not use a typical close mesh air filtration device from the factory.
I recommend bringing along an extra set of pre- filters at least and changing them if need be, during the days trip or activities.
That does not negate the possibility for main filter plugging eventually, with ice crystals..so keep an eye on that as well.
SUPERTUNER said:
Pre-filters were designed to trap dust, such as a sandy eviornment..like desert riding. The fiber used to manufacture the pre filters is Nylon. Nylon is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water. When it absorbs water into its matrix, (Matrix is the internal structure of the fiber itself) the matrix expands. When the Fiber grows from expansion, that tightens the mesh and eventually restricts. But thats not what we're talking about here.
Take a vacuum cleaner hose and drape the pre-filter over the end. Turn on the vacuum cleaner, stick it in water and see what happens! You'll suck the water right through the mesh. But again, this is extreme and still different from what I pointed out above.
Water vapor is what I think causes the problem in this case. Water vapor in the form of humidity and (humidity causes your lawn, car windshield etc., to look like it has actually snowed on some extreme mornings...at least promt you to scrape the windshield before driving away.) steam from snow dust hitting hot engine surfaces and subsequently being drawn THROUGH the fiber mesh of the pre-filter and the mesh of the main air filter. This vapor is in the form of a gas (water or steam and air) and interestingly enough, is one of the gasses that can sublime (sublime means to go from a gas directly to a solid, without stoping in the liquid phase first).
Now couple this with the heat of vaporization (Heat of Vaporization is the consumption of ambient heat to vaporize a liquid. All liquids have a HoV point and alcohol for example, requires a much higher energy input to vaporize vs- gas) and subsequent loss of ambient heat, actually below the atmospheric temperature, (because of heat of vaporization) do to the the venturi effect of the carbs, (which is fairly minimal on a Mikuni carb, compared to a Holley for example) and you have the perfect conditions for freeze closing the mesh on the pre-filter and the main air filter. This is why snowmobiles generally do not use a typical close mesh air filtration device from the factory.
I recommend bringing along an extra set of pre- filters at least and changing them if need be, during the days trip or activities.
That does not negate the possibility for main filter plugging eventually, with ice crystals..so keep an eye on that as well.
SuperStroker,
Thanks for the further info. I gather, then, you don't think moisture in the crank exhaust under the evac set-up contributes materially to an ice up? The day I iced up, I was able to (temporarily - until I plowed in up to the windshield again) get all/most power back mid-trip by removing the filters and clearing a fair amount of ice/moisture from them with compressed air, and it's only an educated guess the filters themselves were causing a much greater restriction than the pre-filters. If a guy had a longer trip planned and had the storage, it might not be a bad idea to carry an extra set of the filters too. Nothing to a quick filter/prefilter change if the need arose.
Thanks for the further info. I gather, then, you don't think moisture in the crank exhaust under the evac set-up contributes materially to an ice up? The day I iced up, I was able to (temporarily - until I plowed in up to the windshield again) get all/most power back mid-trip by removing the filters and clearing a fair amount of ice/moisture from them with compressed air, and it's only an educated guess the filters themselves were causing a much greater restriction than the pre-filters. If a guy had a longer trip planned and had the storage, it might not be a bad idea to carry an extra set of the filters too. Nothing to a quick filter/prefilter change if the need arose.
SuperStroker!
Pro
NDRX-1 said:
Sorry NDRX-1, not ignoring you, just strapped for time.
Yes, I agree that moisture is being reintroduced to the engine from the EVAC, through the carbs. But it seems it would be difficult for the crankcase gasses to deposit themselves on the inside of the filters, if air is being pulled through the filter at a velocity and pressure drop across the filter at the same time.
The engine will and does take care of evacuating most of the moisture out of the engine entirely, past the exhaust valve and out through the exhaust system. So the premise that moisture is recirculating at a 1:1 ratio is probably nonsense.
My guess is the INTAKE AIR that is originally introduced to the engine through the filter, is laden with humidity or water vapor (gas) and it is deposited in the pleats and on the media face of the element and instantly freezes there. I also believe it takes some time for all this to happen. You need to have the right conditions to come together for this to happenand you're probably seeing the prime in that regard...in the mountains/deep snow.
A good comparison is a hot day in the summer running asphalt with your sled, or on your K&N filter equipt bike...No freezing possible, right? In this case, it doesnt matter, on sleds it does!
Afterall, why have any filter at all? Well......to filter out snow, right? So the filters are doing there job>>>>>until they plug so bad, they're useless and the engine runs like crap from restriction.
I would expect the Dyno enviornment to be the best case, non-representative enviornment to actually using the filters in the field.
SuperStroker!
Pro
NDRX-1 said:
1- Yes, don't bring it back to the intake to begin with. Freddie talked about this in one post and mentioned this idea...which is the only way I'd do it on my sled. You need to get an exhaust collector EVAC valve and weld into the collector on the exhaust. The evac suction will increase semi-linear to engine RPM, low suction at idle and high suction at full song. These valves are readily available, the problem is; its a ton of work to get one on the exhaust and the space is restricted at the collector, hence the simple and available solution of returning the case gasses to the intake.
2- I used to take the aftermarket available grill screens and dip them in epoxy and a thin layer of woven glass mat, on the inside. Paint them black on the ouside and they look like open grills. However, this opens up another can of worms with heat saturated air entering the carbs and the corrisponding power loss as a result. We did this on speed runners and drag sleds to keep the air entering where we wanted it to and minimize lift and drag on the hood. We made lexan pods to smooth the area around the openings we closed and it maintained a stock appearence and produced the desired result.
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
Re: Nylon is hygroscopic...
Fraid not for my air kits. They use 2 different materials. One specifically for water repellant required environments. What you say about the dust prefilters is indeed true however. The ones I supply in the RX1 air kits are a different material though.
SuperStroker! said:
Fraid not for my air kits. They use 2 different materials. One specifically for water repellant required environments. What you say about the dust prefilters is indeed true however. The ones I supply in the RX1 air kits are a different material though.
SuperStroker,
The further explanations are appreciated.
Ahhhhh, makes sense. I wonder if the engine were hot and you stopped for a burger in pretty cold temps if the residual exhaust is material? When I shut down to disassemble the evac and clear the filters, there was a fair amount of vapor that continued coming from the crank. Probably not enough to be a problem in and of itself, but not helping matters either.
No mountains here, but plenty of cold. And plenty of wind too, so when we do get snow, inches can turn into feet deposited in certain places, and we seem to go out of our way to find it. That's why I'm trying to find any help on the powdery/cold situations.
Anyway, I love the kit and the problem conditions probably represent something on the order of 10-20% of our riding. And I'm not much of a switch-stuff-for-each-ride kind of guy, so I think I'll stick with the filters and for those times when I think it may be a problem, I'll close off the two lower center vents (only), and on the longer days, carry an extra set of filters and pre-filters, just in case. AND TRY TO KEEP FROM BURYING THE BUGGER UP TO THE WINDSHIELD, MULTIPLE TIMES
The further explanations are appreciated.
Ahhhhh, makes sense. I wonder if the engine were hot and you stopped for a burger in pretty cold temps if the residual exhaust is material? When I shut down to disassemble the evac and clear the filters, there was a fair amount of vapor that continued coming from the crank. Probably not enough to be a problem in and of itself, but not helping matters either.
No mountains here, but plenty of cold. And plenty of wind too, so when we do get snow, inches can turn into feet deposited in certain places, and we seem to go out of our way to find it. That's why I'm trying to find any help on the powdery/cold situations.
Anyway, I love the kit and the problem conditions probably represent something on the order of 10-20% of our riding. And I'm not much of a switch-stuff-for-each-ride kind of guy, so I think I'll stick with the filters and for those times when I think it may be a problem, I'll close off the two lower center vents (only), and on the longer days, carry an extra set of filters and pre-filters, just in case. AND TRY TO KEEP FROM BURYING THE BUGGER UP TO THE WINDSHIELD, MULTIPLE TIMES
SuperStroker!
Pro
NDRX-1 said:SuperStroker,
The further explanations are appreciated.
Ahhhhh, makes sense. I wonder if the engine were hot and you stopped for a burger in pretty cold temps if the residual exhaust is material? When I shut down to disassemble the evac and clear the filters, there was a fair amount of vapor that continued coming from the crank. Probably not enough to be a problem in and of itself, but not helping matters either.
No mountains here, but plenty of cold. And plenty of wind too, so when we do get snow, inches can turn into feet deposited in certain places, and we seem to go out of our way to find it. That's why I'm trying to find any help on the powdery/cold situations.
Anyway, I love the kit and the problem conditions probably represent something on the order of 10-20% of our riding. And I'm not much of a switch-stuff-for-each-ride kind of guy, so I think I'll stick with the filters and for those times when I think it may be a problem, I'll close off the two lower center vents (only), and on the longer days, carry an extra set of filters and pre-filters, just in case. AND TRY TO KEEP FROM BURYING THE BUGGER UP TO THE WINDSHIELD, MULTIPLE TIMES
Like I said...
I would use them on my sled in a minute but information can be illuminating at times and these are interesting points to consider.
Cheers!
SuperStroker!
Pro
Re: Nylon is hygroscopic...
Freddie, this is not water, its vapor and it doesn't matter what you make the filter or pre-filters out of, they will plug in the right conditions...agreed?
SUPERTUNER said:
Freddie, this is not water, its vapor and it doesn't matter what you make the filter or pre-filters out of, they will plug in the right conditions...agreed?
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
Re: Nylon is hygroscopic...
Understood. I just don't want anyone to think this is coming from the outside air or snow dust. IMO, I think it is more relegated to the fact that the condensation coming from the crankcase is being deposited directly into the carbs.
Your explaining and assistance with this is appreciated by all of us!
Thanks,
Freddie Klies
SuperStroker! said:
Understood. I just don't want anyone to think this is coming from the outside air or snow dust. IMO, I think it is more relegated to the fact that the condensation coming from the crankcase is being deposited directly into the carbs.
Your explaining and assistance with this is appreciated by all of us!
Thanks,
Freddie Klies
RX-1ND
Veteran
This is very good informaton. I had first had experience with these filters in the mountains this last weekend. The conditions were 3 foot of fresh fine snow and about 12 degrees F and every once and while when I would hold the throttle wide open it would run about 200 rpm's lower then it should have and it would spit and spudder. I would open the hood and see a large amount of moisture on the outside of the prefilters. I would also like to mention that there was always a pile of snow built up under the hood were the tool box is suppose to be. The snow was entering through the two vents up front. So the next day I went out and it was about 21 degrees and before I left I duck taped the front vents and left the two right and left vents. I never really noticed the spitting and spuddering that I had the day before.
I also really like the filters, but in some conditons they do not perform to there optimal performance.
One more thing, I will keep running the filters in the mountains but why does the factory air box not have the same problems.
I also really like the filters, but in some conditons they do not perform to there optimal performance.
One more thing, I will keep running the filters in the mountains but why does the factory air box not have the same problems.
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
RX-1ND said:
Pack enough snow under the hood and the stock airbox will run horrible too.
These are snowmobiles everyone...not moles!
Similar threads
