journeyman
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Emme.g.h. said:
No, I wouldn't say that. You know how this can go. For example ,many times you hear about protoypes that were seen but never make it to the show room floor.
Let me date my self a bit with this example: Back in the mid '80s a bunch of guys from my home town were up at a race in Alexandria, MN. Yamaha actually had a new prototype Exciter L/C for people to ride which was due out for the next season (1987). All these guys were wowed by it and claimed that even though the hood was secured down, they could see, hear and tell by it's performance that it had twin pipes on it. I think about a dozen guys in our town bought them including my dad and uncle. As we know it did not have twin pipes and was way down on HP.
So needless to say we are still speculating with bits and pieces of info that we gather up even in the age of the internet and digital cameras. All I can say is it must be hard for the mfg's with all the technology out there to keep things secret every year.
GeorgianBayGuy
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The big long term question that has to be thrown into the mix (pun intended) is the future of 2 strokes. From what I understand is that even the E-Tec motor technology will not pass the future standards / regs. If this is true all manufactures will be looking long term at non-polluting solutions. My friend's 600 Ace engine is that sort of solution. Don't see a whole lot of $$$ going into a dying technology.
Watch the auto industry. Weight reduction, small displacement and turbos. Imagine, Ford is coming out with a passenger car next year with a 3 cyl turbo motor that will feel like a 6 did 10 years ago.
Interesting times.
Watch the auto industry. Weight reduction, small displacement and turbos. Imagine, Ford is coming out with a passenger car next year with a 3 cyl turbo motor that will feel like a 6 did 10 years ago.
Interesting times.
Heritage,
I think you are right on the money. My long time Yamaha dealer and buddy told me years ago that Yamaha viewed EPA compliant 2-strokes as a dead end road.
GeorgianBayGuy,
I agree, I think 2-strokes will be phased out eventually. My RMK comes stock from Polaris running at 80:1 for the oil injection ratio. That's stupid lean and its all due to EPA requirements. Fortunately I can still adjust my pump to make it richer so the engine will last longer and be more reliable. What a lot of guys don't know is Doo's eTech system is so complicated that you can't work on it in your own garage. You need the dealer only laptop to make adjustments. It's a really slick system as long as you work at the dealer of have a buddy who will let you use it. Even the oil pump on an eTech has to be adjusted via the laptop. A number of the factory supported Ski-doo teams in the Iron Dog will be carrying the laptops with them so they can troubleshoot problems on the trail. Basically I think the eTech system is too complicated for its own good and basically ruined the idea of riding a simple two stroke. Now on top of typical 2-stroke engine failure issues a guy has a very complicated engine management system to deal with. While everything these days is going towards fuel injection of one type or another, those systems can be less sophisticated and more reliable when run on a 4-stroke motor. The automotive industry has the bugs worked out.
Its kind of crazy to see the path some of the OEM's are taking in trying to keep 2-strokes alive while running them leaner and leaner. It won't be long before Polaris will have to do something different because their CFI system is not very clean.
I think you are right on the money. My long time Yamaha dealer and buddy told me years ago that Yamaha viewed EPA compliant 2-strokes as a dead end road.
GeorgianBayGuy,
I agree, I think 2-strokes will be phased out eventually. My RMK comes stock from Polaris running at 80:1 for the oil injection ratio. That's stupid lean and its all due to EPA requirements. Fortunately I can still adjust my pump to make it richer so the engine will last longer and be more reliable. What a lot of guys don't know is Doo's eTech system is so complicated that you can't work on it in your own garage. You need the dealer only laptop to make adjustments. It's a really slick system as long as you work at the dealer of have a buddy who will let you use it. Even the oil pump on an eTech has to be adjusted via the laptop. A number of the factory supported Ski-doo teams in the Iron Dog will be carrying the laptops with them so they can troubleshoot problems on the trail. Basically I think the eTech system is too complicated for its own good and basically ruined the idea of riding a simple two stroke. Now on top of typical 2-stroke engine failure issues a guy has a very complicated engine management system to deal with. While everything these days is going towards fuel injection of one type or another, those systems can be less sophisticated and more reliable when run on a 4-stroke motor. The automotive industry has the bugs worked out.
Its kind of crazy to see the path some of the OEM's are taking in trying to keep 2-strokes alive while running them leaner and leaner. It won't be long before Polaris will have to do something different because their CFI system is not very clean.
devinzz1
Expert
AKrider said:
I think that brp has the money and technology to build an engine to meet this. they usually come out with a new engine every couple years and the etec is on its 5th-6th season? Not sure what polaris is gona do. They have some company making their 750 turbo so I can see a possible higher cc version of it.
low slung
TY 4 Stroke Master
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From what i beening reading on various sleds forums that the EPA will give cat another year of selling the dirty two-strokes.As far as people worrying about reliabilty this doesn,t seem to be any issue outside yamaha owners(new 800 polaris popping there wind,ETECs burning up,but there are the hottest sleds in demand :exc: ).I think the two-stroke will be around for much longer than yamaha thought(They canned the VK540/Bravo thinking everybody else would follow suit.Bad move).Yamahas DCS on the SRX/Viper was pretty slick(but the smokers faith was sealed by then).On the topic of a single chassis?It would make sense but remember the pro-action trailing arm chassis?All looked the same but the SRXs were different than the SX700,Viper was different again.Lets not forget the fan-cooled phazer(Which was costly to produce according to Chris Reid,reason the venture XL was sold for so long up here).
Blue Dave
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I am not holding my breath. I hope that I am wrong but I would not be surprised if a year from now we will be hoping for something new in 2015.
I'm positive they are finally coming out with something new, just don't know what it is. I'm prepared to be completely underwhelmed.
What would be really cool and mind blowing would be if they offered something totally different. Just go a completely new direction with sleds, similar to how they created completely new markets like with the Rhino and the BW200. Here are some similar one ski designs like the Snowhawk.
1983 design
Single ski Phazer
I'd be pretty interested in a single ski sled. I rode a Snowhawk once and thought it was interesting. What I didn't care for is that it didn't feel similar enough to a dirt bike. These concepts from Yamaha are much more similar to a dirt bike. The Snohawk was not rider forward and felt a bit like a combination between a sit down watercraft and a dirt bike.
The Bovine Snowhawk
What would be really cool and mind blowing would be if they offered something totally different. Just go a completely new direction with sleds, similar to how they created completely new markets like with the Rhino and the BW200. Here are some similar one ski designs like the Snowhawk.
1983 design
Single ski Phazer
I'd be pretty interested in a single ski sled. I rode a Snowhawk once and thought it was interesting. What I didn't care for is that it didn't feel similar enough to a dirt bike. These concepts from Yamaha are much more similar to a dirt bike. The Snohawk was not rider forward and felt a bit like a combination between a sit down watercraft and a dirt bike.
The Bovine Snowhawk
Suckur
Pro
Maybe we'll see that articulating front suspension that was posted up here last year.
I was trying to find the patent drawings for that but must not have been using the correct search terms.
PureBlue
Expert
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html For term 1, i put yamaha and term 2, snowmobile i cant bring up the drawings for some reason, must not have the right reader on the laptopAKrider said:
low slung
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Yamahas snowmobile project leader Takuji Nakano gives a little insight of what the future holds..... http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/co ... tech-talk/ Remember,this is from two seasons ago.What hes talking about may be 2014.
sweetrides
Extreme
interesting read .. it makes u think what Yamaha has up its sleve . like the part about not going the convetional two ski's and track comment ..
Thanks Pureblue, I found it.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=7oLRAA ... e&q&f=true
Low slung,
The Yamaha article was interesting. It sounded like their plan was to validate the 4-stroke concept so their sleds are no being compared to 2-stroke. Than they will focus on lighter weight and performance. I hope 2014 is the year this starts to come true.
The single ski concept got me curious about what's currently available and their are some Timbersled mountainhorse videos that show their dirt bike conversion actually being used in the mountains in deep snow. They can sidehill like nothing else. It would totally change the way you could climb up steep hills. I'm wouldn't be that stoked on running a manual clutch and shifting gears. That set up just doesn't work well in snow. Too much resistance when you let off the thottle. Seems like there would be a small, niche market for a single ski sled. Yamaha loves to find niches so who knows? The body leaning sled in the patent could be interesting. I'm not sure if the pivoting front end would be an advantage or not? I'd think it would work well in deep snow. I'm thinking it might not be so hot when being ridden across a hard, wind packed sidehill. Then again, who knows? Seems to me it would be squirrelly if the track started sliding out and then having the front end pivoting side to side as you steer downhill to correct the slide.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=7oLRAA ... e&q&f=true
Low slung,
The Yamaha article was interesting. It sounded like their plan was to validate the 4-stroke concept so their sleds are no being compared to 2-stroke. Than they will focus on lighter weight and performance. I hope 2014 is the year this starts to come true.
The single ski concept got me curious about what's currently available and their are some Timbersled mountainhorse videos that show their dirt bike conversion actually being used in the mountains in deep snow. They can sidehill like nothing else. It would totally change the way you could climb up steep hills. I'm wouldn't be that stoked on running a manual clutch and shifting gears. That set up just doesn't work well in snow. Too much resistance when you let off the thottle. Seems like there would be a small, niche market for a single ski sled. Yamaha loves to find niches so who knows? The body leaning sled in the patent could be interesting. I'm not sure if the pivoting front end would be an advantage or not? I'd think it would work well in deep snow. I'm thinking it might not be so hot when being ridden across a hard, wind packed sidehill. Then again, who knows? Seems to me it would be squirrelly if the track started sliding out and then having the front end pivoting side to side as you steer downhill to correct the slide.
low slung
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Heres a pic of the rear suspension of the yamaha snowbike concept(rear suspension is cool,wonder would chain drive take 400HP on a conventional sled?)Honda back in the mid 1990s won a motocross championship in japan with a 250 dirtbike fitted with a version of the hondamatic(rubicon ATV).This tranny would be sweet on a snowbike conversion.As for the leaning technology on a sled this yamaha design would be pretty heavy.A better patent by yamaha i saw has a small pump motor connecting hoses to the front floats on a nytro.The pump reads info about speed,steering shaft turning angle,trottle,etc to vary the fluid/air? between the floats(sort of a active suspension technology,think early 1990s willams f1 car).AKrider said:
Attachments
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
I think Yamaha has been keenly watching Timbersled, and many of aftermarket suppliers for innovation.
A snobike? Good possiblity. You could use an enclosed cog belt (think Polaris prodrive). We have them on industrial loads and they are pretty amazing. We have one that is 4 inches wide that transfer's 250Hp at 1200RPM. Kevlar reinforced and super efficient....like 98%, so they don't get hot and in a snobike application where rpm's are in the 6000+ it would be a very narrow belt, maybe only an inch or two for 300 hp.
Transmission could be the game changer. Our CVT's work really well, but they force either a wide form factor (beside engine)or a long one (if you put it behind the engine). Gear transmissions are well proven, and with the recent advancements in sequential transmissions, you can now have a semi-automatic tranny that can switch gears automatically in milliseconds. F1 has been doing it for years, and now its trickling down to the production vehicles (Ferrar/Porsche/etc). So maybe its the next game changer.
On chassis, I'm not sold on the articulated front end as I see that kind of geometry as being inherently unstable. Trail snowmobiles are very much like a car, requiring chassis stiffness to perform well on trails, whereas powder sleds are increasingly like a Jet Ski, where its all about the body roll of the sled. Anything that facilitates this, like a very narrow platform, will make it work better. Weight affects traction requirements, thus track size, but for powder riders, we are still using a 15x150+ track for 417lbs, so even a sno bike will need a pretty big track.....tranlation.....weight and HP.
Hard to beat the current arrangement of snowmobiles, but hey the internet was a game changer too....Whatever you've got Yami...bring it on!
OTM
A snobike? Good possiblity. You could use an enclosed cog belt (think Polaris prodrive). We have them on industrial loads and they are pretty amazing. We have one that is 4 inches wide that transfer's 250Hp at 1200RPM. Kevlar reinforced and super efficient....like 98%, so they don't get hot and in a snobike application where rpm's are in the 6000+ it would be a very narrow belt, maybe only an inch or two for 300 hp.
Transmission could be the game changer. Our CVT's work really well, but they force either a wide form factor (beside engine)or a long one (if you put it behind the engine). Gear transmissions are well proven, and with the recent advancements in sequential transmissions, you can now have a semi-automatic tranny that can switch gears automatically in milliseconds. F1 has been doing it for years, and now its trickling down to the production vehicles (Ferrar/Porsche/etc). So maybe its the next game changer.
On chassis, I'm not sold on the articulated front end as I see that kind of geometry as being inherently unstable. Trail snowmobiles are very much like a car, requiring chassis stiffness to perform well on trails, whereas powder sleds are increasingly like a Jet Ski, where its all about the body roll of the sled. Anything that facilitates this, like a very narrow platform, will make it work better. Weight affects traction requirements, thus track size, but for powder riders, we are still using a 15x150+ track for 417lbs, so even a sno bike will need a pretty big track.....tranlation.....weight and HP.
Hard to beat the current arrangement of snowmobiles, but hey the internet was a game changer too....Whatever you've got Yami...bring it on!
OTM
