Clutching help

[NOS-PRO]

Funny to see guys that don't own a Viper trying to set them up, because we all know the Viper sets up different. Weight profile has everything to do with your RPM on takeoff. The original weights in your Vipers (non MTX) had a hump in the base to deliberately cause an overrev....yeah I know why do that? Now, I do not know what profile weight Ullmer is running nor do I know what Dave is running....I can only tell you to ask the guy you got the kit from as all the parts are designed to work together. I.E. Running our GWG spring from our "clutching on the cheap" thread isn't going to work for your weights as it does for the 8FP we set it up with. NOS-PRO Viper that in the real world turned 11.2 at 109mph in the 1/4 mile on asphalt with only a can and my air box mod...and my clutch mod, most of it in the clutching. Our Red Viper with air box mod and clutch mod runs even up with our friends 800 Ski Doo. I have never seen a Yamaha that you can get so much out of in the clutching.

And changing the secondary spring effects your setup also as far as upshift and backshift and even a little RPM. What I am saying is don't go crazy trying to reset a kit you bought, call the guy you got it from.


Good call. Definitely give the guy that built the kit a call for the most accurate assistance.
BTW, not trying to set up anybody's sled for them over the Internet. Just sharing advice I've either been given, or seen given out, by great clutch tuners, in regards to every other Yamaha 4 stroke built to date.

Well said Stubby.....

This is a kit that people are having problems with, call the person who's kit it is and tell them what is wrong. If I bought a kit and paid that much money for and it made things worse....I would be furious! I would demand answers to why, what and how. Why isn't Allen commenting here?

I give cannondale a huge pat on the back for helping out in this thread. His sled runs good and he is like me, not happy with a sled till it's perfect.

Now, as Stingray said...this sled is not the same as a Nytro and is different than any other sled in my book. I found that the aggressive profile weights perform worse in real world results. These are my results, along with a few others.....so take it with a grain of salt. Dyno testing? Sure, they make horsepower, but a dyno is different than real world results. It's all about putting the power to the ground efficiently and successfully. SO many variables now, 8JP belts, 8DN belts, this and that, his and hers kit....I can see why members and Viper owners are afraid to touch clutching....let alone listen to whose is better. If you are racing or want that extra performance, then purchase the parts like in the 8FP kit or buy a kit from a reputable performance shop.

I think we all need snow to ride on.....seems like little things are getting to people on here.

Closing my statement with this....give your loved ones a hug and tell them you love them. Just spent the last 4 days saying goodbye to my brother in law, knowing that is/was the last time I will ever get to shake his hand and let him know how much he meant to me, my boys and the fun times we had.

 

[Blue Dave]

Closing my statement with this....give your loved ones a hug and tell them you love them. Just spent the last 4 days saying goodbye to my brother in law, knowing that is/was the last time I will ever get to shake his hand and let him know how much he meant to me, my boys and the fun times we had.

That is the best advice of all! It is important to remember that sledding is great but that health, friends, and family are what really matters in life!

I am sorry to hear about your brother in law. My sincere condolences to you and your family.

 

[kviper]

I said it many posts ago. If you have a problem with Allans kit you need to call Allan! That said many times a kit will need fine tuning and any one with the basic understanding can do it.

stingray you think it's funny that I give advice on a Viper setup because I don't own one. LOL! The only thing different on the Viper is there screwed up from new otherwise they are identical to any other Yamaha clutch once the basics are back to normal. They have a typical torque curve of any other four stroke, they respond to spring's and cam angles identical. Ulmer and Hurricane are setting up kit's on the same basics as any other kit.
What's funny to me is your theory that there different is the only one that's different?

As far as asphalt results. Nos Pros results are the only Viper results I have seen so nothing to compare to but I wouldn't be giving out a lot of advice for snow based on asphalt.

Sorry but again you tried to make fun of me first!

 

[NOS-PRO]

I said it many posts ago. If you have a problem with Allans kit you need to call Allan! That said many times a kit will need fine tuning and any one with the basic understanding can do it.

Exactly

As far as asphalt results. Nos Pros results are the only Viper results I have seen so nothing to compare to but I wouldn't be giving out a lot of advice for snow based on asphalt.

The 8FP kit is the same that was used on snow last winter and was/is a great setup for snow which is what Stingray is referring to. You are right kviper, Stingray lists my asphalt results and there wasn't any other viper running asphalt for comparison (which asphalt is different from trail snow).....but the speeds last winter I posted in "My XTX setup ride and review" were on snow with a proven 107mph. Low engagement of 2,800 which people are really liking, no belt dust with the 8DN, great arm pull feel and back to back consitancy with rpms.

Not trying to start anything as I am only trying to help here, but needed to mention that there is proof on snow. This was before machining of the clutches also.

 

[stingray719]

I said it many posts ago. If you have a problem with Allans kit you need to call Allan! That said many times a kit will need fine tuning and any one with the basic understanding can do it.

stingray you think it's funny that I give advice on a Viper setup because I don't own one. LOL! The only thing different on the Viper is there screwed up from new otherwise they are identical to any other Yamaha clutch once the basics are back to normal. They have a typical torque curve of any other four stroke, they respond to spring's and cam angles identical. Ulmer and Hurricane are setting up kit's on the same basics as any other kit.
What's funny to me is your theory that there different is the only one that's different?

As far as asphalt results. Nos Pros results are the only Viper results I have seen so nothing to compare to but I wouldn't be giving out a lot of advice for snow based on asphalt.

Sorry but again you tried to make fun of me first!

In your defense I too thought when we bought the girlfriends Viper last winter it would be a Nytro style clutch setup. Imagine my surprise when it was not, I mean you could put a Nytro kit in and have it run better but the real increase came through a very different setup. When I approached NOS-PRO with what I found you could hear the doubt in his voice but he agreed to try it, and found the same thing I did. That is why I mentioned your not having tested in the real world as we have. Not to start a fight but have accurate information out. Now as this is a thread about a kit that I have no direct knowledge of I will bow out.

 

[NOS-PRO]

That is the best advice of all! It is important to remember that sledding is great but that health, friends, and family are what really matters in life!

I am sorry to hear about your brother in law. My sincere condolences to you and your family.

Thank you so much Blue Dave and he is right....health, friends and family are what really matters in life!

 

[kviper]

One thing that should be known with any kit that's making more track HP. Traction is key! I have seen it first hand over and over where a person puts a kit in and expects it will blow a stocker away, then lines up on looser snow and runs side by side. The harder the snow condition is the better the power is used. I always said loose snow is an equalizer! 100% hook is where the added power is fully utilized. Almost every time some one tells me there clutch kit is no quicker traction is the issue for one reason or another.

Suspendtion, studding and look for the best hard PAC you can find because that's where an agressive kit stands out!
PLus better back shift over stock!

 

[yamaha1973]

Exactly




The 8FP kit is the same that was used on snow last winter and was/is a great setup for snow which is what Stingray is referring to. You are right kviper, Stingray lists my asphalt results and there wasn't any other viper running asphalt for comparison (which asphalt is different from trail snow).....but the speeds last winter I posted in "My XTX setup ride and review" were on snow with a proven 107mph. Low engagement of 2,800 which people are really liking, no belt dust with the 8DN, great arm pull feel and back to back consitancy with rpms.

Not trying to start anything as I am only trying to help here, but needed to mention that there is proof on snow. This was before machining of the clutches also.

Your engaging at 2800? With two shims Im at 3400-3500... I am still running the 8JP as I couldnt get the 8DN to adjust to my liking.

 

[skidooslayer687]

I wasn't trying to start anything either, and I realize that every sleds different... I was more or less just curious when adding weight to the arms in different spots how it would effect Rpms.. And I fully agree with the snow, the lack of it is making testing hard as hell and driving me stir crazy haha. I do appreciate everyone's input!

 

[NOS-PRO]

Your engaging at 2800? With two shims Im at 3400-3500... I am still running the 8JP as I couldnt get the 8DN to adjust to my liking.

yamaha1973 - what was happening with the 8DN that you didn't like? Yes, I am at 2,800-2,900 with a brand new belt that measures 1.378" for a belt width. (2) 1mm shims, GWG spring, 8FP weights with 3.5 gram in tip.

My clutch was and has been thoroughly cleaned to get the 8JP gunk out, check yours....the primary will bind with the belt residue causing a higher engagement.

 

[yamaha1973]

yamaha1973 - what was happening with the 8DN that you didn't like? Yes, I am at 2,800-2,900 with a brand new belt that measures 1.378" for a belt width. (2) 1mm shims, GWG spring, 8FP weights with 3.5 gram in tip.

My clutch was and has been thoroughly cleaned to get the 8JP gunk out, check yours....the primary will bind with the belt residue causing a higher engagement.

Same setup, clutches were thoroughly cleaned when the clutch components were installed.

Couldnt get the 8DN up high enough in the secondary. Ill try another one once this 8JP wears out. After the season is over I think Ill send my clutches to Ulmer for some machining.

 

[NOS-PRO]

Same setup, clutches were thoroughly cleaned when the clutch components were installed.

Couldnt get the 8DN up high enough in the secondary. Ill try another one once this 8JP wears out. After the season is over I think Ill send my clutches to Ulmer for some machining.

When you go into your dealer for a belt, ask them for a caliper and find the widest belt you can. You can measure the belts in the bag, all you have to do is place the caliper over the side of the belt with the bag and pick out the widest of their inventory. I went through 20 something belts at the last place I went to.

Machining will definitley help you

 

[Blue Dave]

When you go into your dealer for a belt, ask them for a caliper and find the widest belt you can. You can measure the belts in the bag, all you have to do is place the caliper over the side of the belt with the bag and pick out the widest of their inventory. I went through 20 something belts at the last place I went to.

Machining will definitley help you

How much variation are you measuring in the new belts?

 

[NOS-PRO]

How much variation are you measuring in the new belts?

Last dealer I visited I saw a difference of .025" (1.353 - 1.378)

Dealer before that in Hancock, Mi. was .037" (1.348 - 1.385)

TA Motorsports was .030" (1.351 - 1.381)

These were all 8DN belts

 

[Blue Dave]

Last dealer I visited I saw a difference of .025" (1.353 - 1.378)

Dealer before that in Hancock, Mi. was .037" (1.348 - 1.385)

TA Motorsports was .030" (1.351 - 1.381)

These were all 8DN belts

Wow! That is a large variation. You would think that they could keep the manufacturing tolerances tighter than that. I would suspect that if a guy were to measure circumference that you may see a similar variation. I also suspect that the 8JP belt may have similar variation.

It makes me glad that I bought the OSP adjustment tool for the secondary. Super slick tool that allows you to adjust the secondary sheave width (belt height) with a simple turn of a threaded collar instead of having to remove the secondary and add or remove washers under the three screw heads.

The OSP tool also can be used to spread the secondary clutch sheaves to make it easy to replace the belt. Every Viper owner should have one of these handy tools!