Difficult starting in extreme cold

[stanzuray]

Out here in the village (Tanana - middle of Alaska) and two of us got the 499cc four strokes new this year. I got a new 2013 and for most of the winter it's been unusually warm. Anyway both of us got shut down lately when temps got down to 20 below. Both of us have the cold weather installs of oil heater, charger and antifreeze heater. Even after 8 hours heating no start. So sealed up all entrances to engine compartment and blanketed whole cowling and got it to start at -20 finally one day but 25 below next day was a no go. Engine turns over fine and fast enough. Coughs like it tries to start but don't want to damage starter so don't push it at all.
So other day it got to 30 below and I thought the darn thing starts at 10 below fine so I'll just make it that inside the engine compartment. Rigged up a hair dryer inside engine compartment (which we use all the time on our 2 strokes) and blanketed the cowling and openings - ran hair dryer an hour and engine fired right up. I'm now doing that at 38 yesterday and 41 below this morning and starting fine.
I'd say there is something electrical or something like fuel injectors that need the heat and they are not getting it from the oil tank or antifreeze heaters. It's a solution but you need electricity for it so no good on the trail without a generator. But at least it can be started now. Like the sno go and love the gas millage at $7 a gallon here. Love any input on this - been all over looking for hints etc. Stan

 

[Mooseman]

Welcome to the forum. I requested that your post be moved here as the thread you posted this in was not related.

I've started mine down to -25c (-13f) without any issues. If you are in colder weather than that, that is extreme. Some have had success with priming the fuel three times before trying to start it. Turn the key to prime the pump but don't start it. Turn it off again are repeat twice. After the third time, try to start it.

Maybe your colder denser air might have something to do with it. Bring your sled to your dealer and have him adjust the fuel ratio richer or try it yourself:
http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/phazer-disassembly-help.41865/#post-364834

As indicated at the beginning of that post, it will make it richer for both starting and while running but if the air is that much denser, it might make it run even better in the cold.

 

[asti]

Could it be there is water in the fuel, frozen up somewhere in the fuelline?
My mp starts good in those conditions.

 

[stanzuray]

Could it be there is water in the fuel, frozen up somewhere in the fuelline?
My mp starts good in those conditions.

Asti - I would think water would be ice at 15 below as well as colder and at 15 below it starts good. plugging oil and anti heaters in it starts at 20 below. Does yours start well at 25 to 40 below without heaters or is it with them . As I mentioned the only way mine will start so far at colder than 20 below is with a hair dryer under hood and blanketed. Doesn't need no heaters just the hair dryer. I'm trying to do all this to figure out what is causing the no start and what needs that hot air. Started and ran fine at 40 below again today but needed just a hair dryer. ???

 

[stanzuray]

Welcome to the forum. I requested that your post be moved here as the thread you posted this in was not related.

I've started mine down to -25c (-13f) without any issues. If you are in colder weather than that, that is extreme. Some have had success with priming the fuel three times before trying to start it. Turn the key to prime the pump but don't start it. Turn it off again are repeat twice. After the third time, try to start it.

Maybe your colder denser air might have something to do with it. Bring your sled to your dealer and have him adjust the fuel ratio richer or try it yourself:
http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/phazer-disassembly-help.41865/#post-364834

As indicated at the beginning of that post, it will make it richer for both starting and while running but if the air is that much denser, it might make it run even better in the cold.

Good hints - I'll try tomorrow. Thanks

 

[Mooseman]

And another thing, use only premium fuel without ethanol if you can.

 

[asti]

Stan, I dont even have a heater. It starts, even though I hate tormenting the little engine, but sometimes you have to.
Here in Sweden we only have 40 below two or three times a year, and I never ride on those days. 25 however, I have tried several times.

 

[stanzuray]

And another thing, use only premium fuel without ethanol if you can.

We only have regular unleaded fuel here (village of 200 people - no roads in/out) so was wondering if any of these octane boosters were safe to use and would work . Also heard "heet" (ethanol) should not be used as it's bad for these engines. Someone told me he heard not to use it in Yamaha four strokes but could not say why. Like I say just trying to figure these machines out. Thanks, Stan

 

[Mooseman]

Ethanol is just bad. It absorbs water, breaks down faster over time and has a lower power output (i.e. makes less heat when burned). It also leans out the mixture. Here's a video that shows a quick test to see if the gas has ethanol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd-iO1-ZCMo


Now for the octane itself, there have been different requirements by Yamaha over the years. Both of my 07's require 91 octane. My son's 09 says 87. I bet that yours says 91. Many have used just regular 87 octane even though it calls for 91 without any ill effects. If there is any detonation, the KCS (Knock Control System) will kick in and retard the timing to protect the engine. Most have not had any issues except if they got a batch of bad gas. I only mentioned premium 91 octane gas because here, most of the time, it doesn't have ethanol. Now there aren't too many corn fields in Alaska so you might not have any ethanol. Just test it and find out. Either way, doesn't look like you would have a choice. I wouldn't use octane boosters. If your gas is good, it shouldn't be needed.

 

[asti]

Even though you may disagree, I still suspect somthing with the fuel. Either that or condensation in wiring/electronics.

 

[APEX 06]

The battery will freeze at that temp, I'm thinking the battery is so cold that you are not getting full voltage. Pull the battery or heat it up first.

 

[stanzuray]

The battery will freeze at that temp, I'm thinking the battery is so cold that you are not getting full voltage. Pull the battery or heat it up first.

Battery is new and at 12.8 volts tonight after being shut off for about 6 hours. The engine turns over more than fast enough to start even at 30 below this morning. Had the charger/antifreeze/oil tank heater pad on all night and nothing. Then it warmed to 20 below in day and after 3 hours of that still no start and cowling was blanketed also.
So went back to the old dependable and plugged in a hair dryer for 30 minutes and it fired right up. I think it's still best to warm up oil and antifreeze before you use hair dryer however so when the engine starts running it's got some warm oil to run on. Still experimenting and trying to find out why the warm hair dryer air makes it start so easy. I'll keep working this post trying to figure it out and thanks to everyone for hints. Stan

 

[wacnstac]

Wow, Stan those are some pretty extreme conditions. Luckily I've never had to test mine that low in Michigan. Will we see you guys running those machines on the show any time soon ?

 

[stanzuray]

Wow, Stan those are some pretty extreme conditions. Luckily I've never had to test mine that low in Michigan. Will we see you guys running those machines on the show any time soon ?

Think you'll be seeing mine in the show anyway. Got a Polaris 340 I still run lots also.
Two more 4 strokes in town now - Yamaha is sponsoring two guys in town in the Iron Dog Race and they'll be running them. Some people around here are watching this cold start issue and would like to buy them but they hear about this cold start issue from others and how they don't start even with the cold start kit installed and a generator when real cold. When like that they aren't much good to the trappers and bush guys. They're real interested in this hair dryer trick but Yamaha needs to figure out why it works so easily and fix something. I've actually got no problem starting anymore it just doesn't make sense to have to do it like this. Stan

 

[Mooseman]

Where did you install the coolant heater? Depending on where you installed it, the heat might not be making it to the engine.