I commented in an earlier thread that doo smart shocks are 'better than nothing'. Yesterday I went out with a buddy for the first time since he picked up his renegade 850 XRS with smart shocks and was able to follow him for many miles through some trashed out sections (thankfully a small part of the ride). They were his local trails he wanted to show off and it was obvious he knew them very well (he was fast). Mostly I was focused on watching how his sled reacts to the whoops I can feel a moment later when I cross them myself, riding in his line. My winder is a 21 SRX, stock track, 2 on torsion block, stock torsion springs, front end backed off a little bit, soft and medium on iQS suspension setting), I weigh 225 geared up. The other rider was in comfort mode I think its called but that doesn't really matter with SS, and he is otherwise straight off the showroom floor in terms of settings. That rider weighs I would guess 185-190lbs geared up. My observation was that, in general, the XRS rode more quietly than the SRX as the bumps got larger meaning the chassis attitude was a bit calmer. On small chatter and up to and including medium bumps they were about the same. On a few places where the whoops were L-XL sized and basically ice covered, the chassis started to get more upset but never to the point of bottoming out. The SRX bottomed out a few times, primarily when I just didn't have the time to switch from medium to firm. I had no problem staying right on him and even dropped well back a few times when I knew there were no trail turn decisions to make, so I could really attack the bumps and could reel him in quickly. If the SRX had had discrete buttons to switch between ride modes I think I would have avoided bottoming out altogether except for maybe one surprise spot. I have to say, the smart shocks are better than - 'better than nothing' for sure, while I was actively managing suspension, he was just riding. I hope cat makes a move in this direction. Speed on the larger trails was 100-140kph, on smaller / tighter sections we ran 30kph-90kph. This is just an observation of riders with seemingly similar skill levels and to be fair, on faster 'loose' corners I was faster and could hold a better, cleaner line (if it was a race, I could have easily run inside of his line). The doo seemed to want to lift the inside ski more and wallowed a bit as well in those corners, he did not appear to be pushing much. Also, he and his sled are significantly lighter, I am a good 25 pounds heavier and the SrX is at least 100lbs heavier which is a lot. Next year he is ordering a 900r with SS so that will be a better comparison.
Oh, I shouldn't leave out.. I also rode my old attak because the guy riding it was having problems keeping up in the trashed sections so I switched sleds and two things happened, one, he was significantly faster when he was on the winder and two, I was reminded as to the limitations of the attak rear skid. Front end was good, engine is still sublime and I really enjoyed it as long as the bumps were not too big but in the tougher sections there was simply no comparison. Yes, this is a 2006 sled with a more sit down riding position but - the entire suspension was just gone through top to bottom, all new bearings, new track new everything (w arm, sliders, grease zerks - everything), completely rebuilt shocks, setup for someone heavier than me. Standing up and attacking the bumps I could still bottom it out easily and even when it wasn't bottomed out the sled was harder to ride fast simply because it wasn't as settled. We switched again and my buddy switched the doo for the attak, his feedback was the same, he was bottoming out even with his smaller frame. IF we were up on the larger groomed trails and even most of the trails we were on yesterday I could have easily ridden the attak all day and been happy, other than the sitting position. That engine is just magic.
If Catmaha comes out with a catalyst and a 4s engine of that power profile I am all-in for two of them. It would be an absolute weapon for where we ride.
Oh, I shouldn't leave out.. I also rode my old attak because the guy riding it was having problems keeping up in the trashed sections so I switched sleds and two things happened, one, he was significantly faster when he was on the winder and two, I was reminded as to the limitations of the attak rear skid. Front end was good, engine is still sublime and I really enjoyed it as long as the bumps were not too big but in the tougher sections there was simply no comparison. Yes, this is a 2006 sled with a more sit down riding position but - the entire suspension was just gone through top to bottom, all new bearings, new track new everything (w arm, sliders, grease zerks - everything), completely rebuilt shocks, setup for someone heavier than me. Standing up and attacking the bumps I could still bottom it out easily and even when it wasn't bottomed out the sled was harder to ride fast simply because it wasn't as settled. We switched again and my buddy switched the doo for the attak, his feedback was the same, he was bottoming out even with his smaller frame. IF we were up on the larger groomed trails and even most of the trails we were on yesterday I could have easily ridden the attak all day and been happy, other than the sitting position. That engine is just magic.
If Catmaha comes out with a catalyst and a 4s engine of that power profile I am all-in for two of them. It would be an absolute weapon for where we ride.
Last edited:
Doowithblue
TY 4 Stroke Guru
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2016
- Messages
- 864
- Age
- 57
- Location
- Waterloo ON
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- 07 Mach z x (sold)
18- RTX LE
I have 3 friends in my inner circle with smarts. One broke a wire off the front arm mount. Defaults to sport plus. Cant fix on trail. The other two have glitches electronically where it acts quite strange. Both going in to see if brp can find the issue. I feel like the idea is great since we all know its been out for a while on sxs's. But i believe they need some tweaking yet. Time will tell. To me they're not a game changer like some are claiming.
number1kyster
TY 4 Stroke God
I have a buddy that traded his SW for an 850 with SS. He says they are amazing.
I’d love to try them, but I like to keep my sleds 4-5 years and them would make me nervous long term.
I’d love to try them, but I like to keep my sleds 4-5 years and them would make me nervous long term.
I have to believe the big difference is the exposure to cold (temperature) and ice (sharp/heavy) which most SxS don't see and their electronics can be a bit more tucked away.
One of our riding group has a 900R Renegade with the smart shocks and last year during its first season he had issues with wiring and separate issues of the shocks defaulting to full firm. After the sled was repaired the second time he was advised that its not the kind of sled you can keep outside week after week of riding and that it needs to be stored in a heated area between rides to avoid issues. This season the sled has been kept in a heated garage and he has had zero suspension issues....now his primary clutch is a whole other issue.
Pstn head
TY 4 Stroke Master
I don’t think those smart shocks are as smart as they claim. Rode an 850 and a 900, I found, yes in a straight line they keep up and react nicely, but threw the corners there’s major delay, sorta like there throttle.
I think what you might be experiencing is a delay in roll control. Maybe that is what I was seeing with the inside ski lifting.. Roll control would come from the roll sensor, which would be hard to isolate from just asymmetric inputs into the front skis. What is the difference between roll induced by the sled rocking (taking a one ski hit), roll from riding on an angle, and roll from driving through a corner. Basically all will have a one ski bias. The main difference will be steering input as that is independent of any single input on the sled (left or right ski, front or rear shock. etc).
Doowithblue
TY 4 Stroke Guru
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2016
- Messages
- 864
- Age
- 57
- Location
- Waterloo ON
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- 07 Mach z x (sold)
18- RTX LE
I thought the only sensor they had for roll control was going off steering degree. Which is why some are experiencing some crazy uneasy feeling when coming in hot and counter steering which puts more damping on wrong side for a split second.
Doowithblue
TY 4 Stroke Guru
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2016
- Messages
- 864
- Age
- 57
- Location
- Waterloo ON
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- 07 Mach z x (sold)
18- RTX LE
Im curious how the 2018 apex 50th system worked? I believe the fluid was shared and controlled by a main solenoid but never took a detailed look on how it actually worked. Maybe cannondale or someone can chime in here.
You couldn't do just steering control, but I don't believe there is any detailed public information on how it works. Or maybe thats all they did as you say, that would be a problem for sure. You would need steering input and I would probably opt for multiple IMUs.
Richard Hodgins
Expert
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2019
- Messages
- 244
- Age
- 46
- Location
- Ottawa ontario
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- Yamaha powered CAT
As others have mentioned this suspension is ‘reactive’ and can’t predict what the next bump will be, speed will be, corner will be. It’s as good as the data it has and is not predictive. A well setup traditional suspension will be miles ahead.
Accelerated technologies has also recently done dyno tests on the different smart shocks setting and showed that body roll was only adjusted in sport mode, and comfort mode did nothing. They are also working with PEFI for a flash to alter some of the maps for these modes so there is obviously room for huge improvements here. There’s a very detailed Facebook post outlining their findings and showing graphs at various speeds with various handle bar inputs etc
Accelerated technologies has also recently done dyno tests on the different smart shocks setting and showed that body roll was only adjusted in sport mode, and comfort mode did nothing. They are also working with PEFI for a flash to alter some of the maps for these modes so there is obviously room for huge improvements here. There’s a very detailed Facebook post outlining their findings and showing graphs at various speeds with various handle bar inputs etc
Last edited:
Super interesting information and basically aligns with the observations I had and the comments that have been posted in other places on the web. The roll thing is not simple to solve. The struggle is that good decisions come from more data samples, but the faster you are moving, the fewer data samples you have to work from (sample rate is fixed, velocity is not). The harder you push, the less information the system has to work with to make good decisions and the less time the system has to react. The anecdotal evidence seems to be the reaction from aggressive riders who after some experience on smart shocks have stated that they will go with a higher end fixed shock (Elka/etc). I still think for the average rider and maybe even above average rider that smart shocks are headed in the right direction, ultimately however, I personally would be happy with just the ability to control the shock damping with discrete inputs (buttons or other) on the handlebars.
Last edited:
Thinking about this some more last night. The approach in using just a shock dyno isn't really going to give you enough inputs for a successful tuning approach. While I am sure you can make some changes, not sure they are always going to be positive. You really would need a way to simulate the entire package on both the sprung and unsprung sides of the equation and this means you need a dyno capable of manipulating the sled itself or the ability to simulate a sled+rider and the interaction/integration of all major sensors in the equation. And, a really good programmer with a strong physics background. There is a lot of interesting reading here.
1nc 2000
Lifetime Member Tim
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2010
- Messages
- 3,072
- Location
- Marquette, MI
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- Yamaha FX Nytro RTX SE
Why not just keep it simple.
When the electronics and wiring break it defaults to hard and ruins your week long vacation.
Snow and ice build up in the suspension....
Another reason to drive the prices thru the roof again!
When the electronics and wiring break it defaults to hard and ruins your week long vacation.
Snow and ice build up in the suspension....
Another reason to drive the prices thru the roof again!
mario750
Pro
I've put 1800 miles on my XRS with SS suspension , so far no problems with it . I got sled park outside cabin with skid packed with ice snow so much that I have problem lifting it for clean up next morning . I would have no problem with ordering a new sled again with SS .
