chubby
Extreme
Was talking to a few people and they had said the intake air temps on the supercharger kits are In the 150 to 200F and the temps for the rear mount turbos are under 100. Mc says 75-80 degrees. I am not sure that I would like that 150 + air. Any other Inputs would be great. Super abe?
ken_climb
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
If thats true ,what would a front mount turbo be?
Kenne Bell:
Temperature efficiency is the difference between the temperatures entering as compared to the boosted discharge air temperature. Be aware that a temperature reduction AFTER will not make more HP, as many experts would falsely lead you to believe. It's impossible. Say you trapped your discharge air in a balloon. The oxygen in the balloon will always weigh the same regardless of how much it is cooled. How can this trapped air magically acquire more molecules? It cannot. So always remember, cooling air AFTER cannot make more power, therefore, intercoolers do not increase HP. When will everyone out there get this right? The cooler air will, however, allow the engine to run more ignition advance and/or more boost on a given octane.
1 psi boost = .5 point CR (effective Compression Ratio)
1 point CR = 2 psi boost (Cylinder Pressure)
1 point CR = 2% HP
1 psi boost requires 1-1.5 octane (minimum)
1 psi boost = 6.8% HP max
1 point CR = 3 - 5 octane
1 AF ratio = 2 octane
1° advance = 1/2 - 3/4 octane point
10° engine coolant (160° -180° range) = 1 octane
20° ambient = 1 octane
1000' altitude = -1 octane point
1000' altitude = .5 psi
6°F temp change = 1% air density
30% humidity = 1 octane
10° air charge temperature = 1% HP
-20° charge temp = .5 psi additional boost with same octane
3/4 PSI DROP = 5% pressure
10 psi fuel pressure = 8% AF ratio: 5 psi = 4% AF ratio
MPI website:
Pressure drop across the intercooler core is less than a half pound and intake temperatures are typically between 10* and 30* degrees above ambient.
DynoTech: Bender Turbo
4.4 lbs boost, ambient 50*, turbo outlet 138*, after intercooler 106*
8.1 lbs boost, ambient 46*, turbo outlet 148*, first intercooler 118*, second intercooler 51*
CPR website:
7.65 lbs boost, ambient ???, turbo outlet 225*, after intercooler 152*
Temperature efficiency is the difference between the temperatures entering as compared to the boosted discharge air temperature. Be aware that a temperature reduction AFTER will not make more HP, as many experts would falsely lead you to believe. It's impossible. Say you trapped your discharge air in a balloon. The oxygen in the balloon will always weigh the same regardless of how much it is cooled. How can this trapped air magically acquire more molecules? It cannot. So always remember, cooling air AFTER cannot make more power, therefore, intercoolers do not increase HP. When will everyone out there get this right? The cooler air will, however, allow the engine to run more ignition advance and/or more boost on a given octane.
1 psi boost = .5 point CR (effective Compression Ratio)
1 point CR = 2 psi boost (Cylinder Pressure)
1 point CR = 2% HP
1 psi boost requires 1-1.5 octane (minimum)
1 psi boost = 6.8% HP max
1 point CR = 3 - 5 octane
1 AF ratio = 2 octane
1° advance = 1/2 - 3/4 octane point
10° engine coolant (160° -180° range) = 1 octane
20° ambient = 1 octane
1000' altitude = -1 octane point
1000' altitude = .5 psi
6°F temp change = 1% air density
30% humidity = 1 octane
10° air charge temperature = 1% HP
-20° charge temp = .5 psi additional boost with same octane
3/4 PSI DROP = 5% pressure
10 psi fuel pressure = 8% AF ratio: 5 psi = 4% AF ratio
MPI website:
Pressure drop across the intercooler core is less than a half pound and intake temperatures are typically between 10* and 30* degrees above ambient.
DynoTech: Bender Turbo
4.4 lbs boost, ambient 50*, turbo outlet 138*, after intercooler 106*
8.1 lbs boost, ambient 46*, turbo outlet 148*, first intercooler 118*, second intercooler 51*
CPR website:
7.65 lbs boost, ambient ???, turbo outlet 225*, after intercooler 152*
slymax
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I know my intercooler plenum stays pretty cool on my MCX running 14lbs. I was actually very impressed with the difference in my underhood temps versus the fronts I have seen and ridden and i run the stock hood. By keeping the charge temps lower I can run higher boost without risk of detonation. That was the main reason I opted for the MCX for my Apex.
chubby
Extreme
I like the lower temps Too. less chance pf deto
Hammer,
VERY good information. One thing the dyno tests for the rear mounts are not taking into account is snow on the charge tube under the sled. That's pretty tough to recreate on a dyno. I wonder how much that drops the temps?
VERY good information. One thing the dyno tests for the rear mounts are not taking into account is snow on the charge tube under the sled. That's pretty tough to recreate on a dyno. I wonder how much that drops the temps?
Yes sir, DynoTech Bender was a rear mount with charge tube. The 8.1 lbs run above showed with both charge tube and airbox intercooler exit temps, overall intake air was 5* above ambient.
Bottom line: 10,700rpm, 221.6hp, 305 CFM, 12.4 A/F, Race/93octane mix.
snowy1
TY 4 Stroke Guru
thats one of the reasons I don,t run a hood, no under hood heat to soak up and if I do run a hood its a screen hood with a hole cut in it for the air filter to stick through to get nothing but cold air incase the powder has plugged off the screen, on the rx1 you can run in 2 to 3 ft. of powder all day with no hood. the clutches are sealed up will enough that no snow gets in them. did it all last year never got snow on clutches once.
peteracing
Expert
Hammer, try a turbocharged rx on a dyno, with a blower shooting cold
air at the intercooler, record hp. Then try it WITHOUT the blower and
you'll see if a intercooler does not add hp...At least it prevents hp. loss...
On a 220 hp sled, it robs about 30 hp.
Density of charge air is it...
How do you explain that car tire pressure changing in spring and fall...
Temp. changes it...
air at the intercooler, record hp. Then try it WITHOUT the blower and
you'll see if a intercooler does not add hp...At least it prevents hp. loss...
On a 220 hp sled, it robs about 30 hp.
Density of charge air is it...
How do you explain that car tire pressure changing in spring and fall...
Temp. changes it...
If Hot air intake is not an issue, then why do guys install a snorkel (breathing apparatus) coming threw the hood some in front and some behind the windshield on front mounts? Is this to avoid heat as well as snow?
I’m certainly not claiming to be an expert here just trying to put all the info together… I understand how introducing oxygen through nitrous oxide works but I still don’t understand how intercooling is increasing the percentage of oxygen molecules after initial compression… Air is 21% Oxygen and 78% Nitrogen… It’s compressed through centrifugal action and forced into a chamber (intercooler/combustion)… The air in that chamber although compressed is still 21% Oxygen and 78% Nitrogen… Even if you cool it, still 21% Oxygen and 78% Nitrogen… You didn’t add Oxygen or remove Nitrogen by cooling it… Isn’t the initial compression of the air at the compressor what does the magic and the intercooling just makes it easier for the engine to digest without detonation ???
snowy1
TY 4 Stroke Guru
I would think Hammers right as long as it,s the same volume of air it should make the same hp. regardless of temp. is it possible that as you cool the innercooler its allowing more volume to be pushed into it due to colder air taking up less volume in the inner cooler.
sledheadgeorge
TY 4 Stroke God
HAMMER said:
Cooling of oxygen does not increase the molecules of oxygen after intial compression.
The change in temperature has two advantages, 1. It increases power and 2. It staves off detonation to a higher boost preasure.
"Cooling gas makes it denser (more molecules per cubic inch) The desity increase sould be around 10 to15% depending on boost level and cooler efficiency. Power increases proportional to density. This is certainly a useful increae in power but nowhere near all that is safely available. The increased margin of safley on detonation is so great, due to the temp. reduction, that a portion of that margin of increase can be used to raise the operating boost level. Detonation will therefore be supressed a further 4 to 5 psi boost with a proper intercooler. Operating boost preasures can and sould be raised 3 or 4 psi. The improvement in performance as a result of the additional 3-4 psi intercooled is approximately the same as the performance provided by the first 5-6 psi of boost."
Hope this answers your question.
hammer, you could drive yourself crazy trying to figure out the bs form the facts, but..you've got one thing right for sure, i don't bs about hp. looking at the results you posted it makes my kit look like crap from an intake temperature stand point, but i'm glad you were smart enough to see how heat saturation can greatly effect these results, i try to be as exacting as possible when it comes to testing. rather than doing cold quick pulls to make my kit look better that it is, i showed worst case senario testing to show the kits ability to deal with the heat and still make the guaranteed hp i claim, sure it will make more on a cold blast, but we have run these kits wide open for a mile as some of our customers have, and we wanted to know and show you how it would handle that kind of abuse. sometimes trying to be honest and accurate can make you look poorly when comparing to suspect results posted form other companies. but its funny how all these claims of superiority are soon lost when it comes to real world track results. we current hold two world records with our turbo kits. 4.077 at 127 mph in 500 ft grass, and 7.97 at 170 mph in a 1/4 mile on asphalt. we let our results prove the difference between real world horsepower and straight out false advertising. did you catch the bs from last years am snow shoot-out?? we ran a pump gas full weight trail rx 1 turbo, (to show our consumers what they can expect from a trail kit) our rear mount competitor ran a bored, stroked, light weight full mod race turbo that was so jacked up it ended up blowing a head gasket before the day was over. then they advertise that they where 20 mph fastest than the 2nd fastest turbo there. i personally found that very amusing. ..perhaps true, but very misleading..did you ever wonder why the same big name rear turbo manufacturer would now build a frt mount to try to compete against our sled? they claim the rear mounts make more hp and have better cooling, the tunnel exchangers cooling results they saw on the dyno short blast should be the same as a short blast on the grass shouldn't it. maybe the advertisement should just say... buy what i sell, not what i run. by the way, who was throwing the snow up on the tunnel air cooler while they were getting all these real world results from the dyno test. some of these claims are laughable at best. my testing was done during the middle of summer, 80-90 degree ambient temps on a fully heat saturated system. worst case senario testing. not a flash dyno run.
lets critic the advertised results you posted above...
explain to me how they are making almost twice the amount of boost, while only making 10 degrees more intake temp.
here is some of our test results, notice we started the test at the higher rpms and slowly pulled the engine down through the powerband. there is very little temperature varience throughout the entire pull
tuRPM TORQUE HP EX3 EX4 CUSTOM
5800 112.40 124.00 224.00 151.00 8.47
5900 113.00 127.00 225.00 151.00 8.43
6000 112.30 128.30 223.00 151.00 8.47
6100 113.40 131.60 223.00 153.00 8.38
6200 113.00 133.30 222.00 151.00 8.39
6300 113.10 135.80 220.00 154.00 8.28
6400 112.50 137.50 222.00 156.00 8.26
6500 111.80 138.30 223.00 154.00 8.25
6600 111.50 140.10 222.00 155.00 8.25
6700 112.00 142.80 221.00 156.00 8.18
6800 112.00 145.00 221.00 155.00 8.18
6900 112.10 147.50 221.00 154.00 8.18
7000 112.50 150.10 223.00 154.00 8.27
7100 112.80 152.50 226.00 155.00 8.23
7200 112.80 154.60 227.00 155.00 8.25
7300 112.50 156.50 226.00 152.00 8.13
7400 112.90 159.10 224.00 154.00 8.10
7500 112.50 160.60 225.00 153.00 8.06
7600 113.00 163.50 224.00 153.00 8.02
7700 112.00 164.30 227.00 154.00 8.06
7800 111.60 165.80 226.00 156.00 8.10
7900 110.60 166.50 224.00 155.00 8.13
8000 110.10 167.80 224.00 154.00 8.10
8100 108.50 167.50 224.00 155.00 8.05
RPM TORQUE HP EX3 EX4 CUSTOM
8200 108.30 169.00 225.00 156.00 7.98
8300 107.00 169.10 227.00 154.00 7.96
8400 106.40 170.10 226.00 153.00 8.02
8500 107.10 173.50 226.00 154.00 8.02
8600 105.60 173.00 225.00 154.00 7.96
8700 105.50 174.80 224.00 153.00 7.90
8800 104.60 175.30 225.00 153.00 7.86
8900 104.10 176.60 225.00 155.00 7.86
9000 103.90 178.00 225.00 155.00 7.84
9100 103.50 179.30 225.00 154.00 7.78
9200 103.60 180.60 224.00 151.00 7.76
9400 103.30 184.80 226.00 150.00 7.75
9500 103.60 187.60 225.00 152.00 7.61
9600 103.30 188.80 225.00 151.00 7.61
9700 102.50 189.30 226.00 151.00 7.63
9800 102.80 191.80 225.00 152.00 7.67
9900 101.90 192.10 224.00 152.00 7.69
10000 100.80 192.00 225.00 152.00 7.65
10100 99.50 191.50 224.00 151.00 7.65
10200 98.00 190.30 224.00 152.00 7.57
10300 97.80 191.80 223.00 151.00 7.59
10400 96.30 190.80 224.00 152.00 7.61
10500 95.40 190.60 222.00 151.00 7.55
10600 93.10 188.10 221.00 149.00 7.50
10700 92.10 187.80 221.00 149.00 7.50
10800 90.90 187.00 220.00 149.00 7.51
turbos are not created equally, the design that goes into them are what makes one kit superior to the next. location and what turbo you use is only part of it. the rest is alot of hard work and dedication. we have set the bar when it comes to yamaha turbo performance, we are proud to be able to say...we have the fastest yamaha turbos on the planet....period. this is a fact. jeff
p.s. before anyone claims i'm picking on other companies kits, i didn't mention any names or bag on anyone, i just pointed out why there are differences in what they advertise and what you read, vs real world test data and results.
p.s.s it really doesn't matter to me who's turbo or supercharger kit you purchase, there is plenty of business to go around for everyone, and all the kits out there are pretty good. but when people start making bogus claims that make my products look bad, don't be suprised when i tell it like it is. i'm very passionate about what i do, and i'll stand by every word i say. jeff
lets critic the advertised results you posted above...
explain to me how they are making almost twice the amount of boost, while only making 10 degrees more intake temp.
here is some of our test results, notice we started the test at the higher rpms and slowly pulled the engine down through the powerband. there is very little temperature varience throughout the entire pull
tuRPM TORQUE HP EX3 EX4 CUSTOM
5800 112.40 124.00 224.00 151.00 8.47
5900 113.00 127.00 225.00 151.00 8.43
6000 112.30 128.30 223.00 151.00 8.47
6100 113.40 131.60 223.00 153.00 8.38
6200 113.00 133.30 222.00 151.00 8.39
6300 113.10 135.80 220.00 154.00 8.28
6400 112.50 137.50 222.00 156.00 8.26
6500 111.80 138.30 223.00 154.00 8.25
6600 111.50 140.10 222.00 155.00 8.25
6700 112.00 142.80 221.00 156.00 8.18
6800 112.00 145.00 221.00 155.00 8.18
6900 112.10 147.50 221.00 154.00 8.18
7000 112.50 150.10 223.00 154.00 8.27
7100 112.80 152.50 226.00 155.00 8.23
7200 112.80 154.60 227.00 155.00 8.25
7300 112.50 156.50 226.00 152.00 8.13
7400 112.90 159.10 224.00 154.00 8.10
7500 112.50 160.60 225.00 153.00 8.06
7600 113.00 163.50 224.00 153.00 8.02
7700 112.00 164.30 227.00 154.00 8.06
7800 111.60 165.80 226.00 156.00 8.10
7900 110.60 166.50 224.00 155.00 8.13
8000 110.10 167.80 224.00 154.00 8.10
8100 108.50 167.50 224.00 155.00 8.05
RPM TORQUE HP EX3 EX4 CUSTOM
8200 108.30 169.00 225.00 156.00 7.98
8300 107.00 169.10 227.00 154.00 7.96
8400 106.40 170.10 226.00 153.00 8.02
8500 107.10 173.50 226.00 154.00 8.02
8600 105.60 173.00 225.00 154.00 7.96
8700 105.50 174.80 224.00 153.00 7.90
8800 104.60 175.30 225.00 153.00 7.86
8900 104.10 176.60 225.00 155.00 7.86
9000 103.90 178.00 225.00 155.00 7.84
9100 103.50 179.30 225.00 154.00 7.78
9200 103.60 180.60 224.00 151.00 7.76
9400 103.30 184.80 226.00 150.00 7.75
9500 103.60 187.60 225.00 152.00 7.61
9600 103.30 188.80 225.00 151.00 7.61
9700 102.50 189.30 226.00 151.00 7.63
9800 102.80 191.80 225.00 152.00 7.67
9900 101.90 192.10 224.00 152.00 7.69
10000 100.80 192.00 225.00 152.00 7.65
10100 99.50 191.50 224.00 151.00 7.65
10200 98.00 190.30 224.00 152.00 7.57
10300 97.80 191.80 223.00 151.00 7.59
10400 96.30 190.80 224.00 152.00 7.61
10500 95.40 190.60 222.00 151.00 7.55
10600 93.10 188.10 221.00 149.00 7.50
10700 92.10 187.80 221.00 149.00 7.50
10800 90.90 187.00 220.00 149.00 7.51
turbos are not created equally, the design that goes into them are what makes one kit superior to the next. location and what turbo you use is only part of it. the rest is alot of hard work and dedication. we have set the bar when it comes to yamaha turbo performance, we are proud to be able to say...we have the fastest yamaha turbos on the planet....period. this is a fact. jeff
p.s. before anyone claims i'm picking on other companies kits, i didn't mention any names or bag on anyone, i just pointed out why there are differences in what they advertise and what you read, vs real world test data and results.
p.s.s it really doesn't matter to me who's turbo or supercharger kit you purchase, there is plenty of business to go around for everyone, and all the kits out there are pretty good. but when people start making bogus claims that make my products look bad, don't be suprised when i tell it like it is. i'm very passionate about what i do, and i'll stand by every word i say. jeff
