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New Heavy Duty/High performance clutching for My Sidewinder this season

J & J Racing said:
Secondary is being way over thought
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You are not wrong there!!!!!
I will say, to the defense of the people here, this stock Winder primary and its inconsistent nature has had people chasing their tails for a while now. I think we may have a grip on whats going on now.
Also these Pro-4 secondary's are being sold with the 43-34 helix for the 998's. That is what we who purchased them are starting with and where told that worked.....
 

J & J Racing said:
You need more finish angle imo on the pro 4 I don’t believe you should compare your 35 angle to what to run in pro 4. A lot of guys w 11 inch STM run straight 42. You get under 36 and you are pinching the #*$&@ out of the belt. You are also killing your top end pull from what I have observed. Yes spring would really need to be softer with a 43-34.
Secondary is being way over thought. You are really close to the stock calibration helix in most cases and you are proving this running a stock 35 degree helix and sled is now working well.

cats have always liked the 38 and 40 finish on turbos since 09
That is really close to a cat setup for the secondary
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Totally agree! I have a 46/36 and the witness marks where the roller rides only get down on the helix about 2/3 of the way. The angle the rollers are touching at that point are around 40 degrees. So technically it’s really like running a 46/40. With the wider Cat belt it probably gets down another degree or two.
I believe the reason the pro 4 comes with such low angles set up for the yamaha machine is it works with the 8DN belt. Cat belts have always been softer than the 8DN and work better with steeper angles. The XS belt is hard and sticky so it’s somewhere in between.
Much thanks to Fleecer and Knapp for doing the testing and sharing the info! I’m gonna try some setups finally this week, then I can put her into storage when they close the trails.

:drink:
 
ClutchMaster said:
Totally agree! I have a 46/36 and the witness marks where the roller rides only get down on the helix about 2/3 of the way. The angle the rollers are touching at that point are around 40 degrees. So technically it’s really like running a 46/40. With the wider Cat belt it probably gets down another degree or two.
I believe the reason the pro 4 comes with such low angles set up for the yamaha machine is it works with the 8DN belt. Cat belts have always been softer than the 8DN and work better with steeper angles. The XS belt is hard and sticky so it’s somewhere in between.
Much thanks to Fleecer and Knapp for doing the testing and sharing the info! I’m gonna try some setups finally this week, then I can put her into storage when they close the trails.

:drink:
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Thanks CM,as your view of where the tension starts,i can see that a little better now,so all things stay hard next time we are up to camp,and if the lakes stay good,maybe I can once more check my stock 35 and yellow set at 60* on the 8jp belt,just to see if top end increases,see how it goes,also hope to have some clutch and belt temps.
 
Well I am pleased to report that my TAPP primary/ STOCK secondary set up worked perfectly for our 1000 mile 4 day ride. No heat, slippage or other ugliness. Great performance and pull all the way through the top.
I was going to fool with the Pro-4 to get to work correctly but at this point I may just shelf it for now as this combo is working great. I may even sell it....
 
STAIN said:
Well I am pleased to report that my TAPP primary/ STOCK secondary set up worked perfectly for our 1000 mile 4 day ride. No heat, slippage or other ugliness. Great performance and pull all the way through the top.
I was going to fool with the Pro-4 to get to work correctly but at this point I may just shelf it for now as this combo is working great. I may even sell it....
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great news stain , can u share your Tapp/ stock secondary set up ? I also I'm very happy with the Tapp and stock secondary , I purchased a new stm secondary and never did try it , my Tapp is , black spring , 1 mm roller , 2 set screws each arm , 35 degree helix , dalton v2 b/o at 6-3 . my offset is 59.7 mm . in order for me to get my offset at his current number on my stm I will have to take 3mm off the post ,
 
I am set up like you except no bolts in the arms. I may put a couple of grams in the arms for next year as it does creep to 9100-9200 on long long runs. I also had my clickers on 5 so I could loose some RPM there also
 
STAIN said:
I am set up like you except no bolts in the arms. I may put a couple of grams in the arms for next year as it does creep to 9100-9200 on long long runs. I also had my clickers on 5 so I could loose some RPM there also
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stain , I'm on clicker 3 , max17 I was hitting my rev limit 9500 -9600 rpm , with empty arms , then it would settle at 9300-9400 rpm , I have now added the 2 screws per arm to stop hitting the rev limiter , and settle the rpm down , the Tapp clutch is great for us and allows us to fine tune it so easily , unfortunately the season has come to a end with no more testing ,
 
Do you use the Hurricane tool to align/adjust offset when going back to stock secondary?
 
STAIN said:
Well I am pleased to report that my TAPP primary/ STOCK secondary set up worked perfectly for our 1000 mile 4 day ride. No heat, slippage or other ugliness. Great performance and pull all the way through the top.
I was going to fool with the Pro-4 to get to work correctly but at this point I may just shelf it for now as this combo is working great. I may even sell it....
Click to expand...


Good stuff, I knew that would work well for you Rich! Glad you have it working like it should. I believe we are all finding the real problem/issue is the Winder primary clutch.

Earlier this winter I was thinking the problem was the secondary clutch, until I tested a bunch of belt and clutch combinations, then I became certain the real issue was actually the primary clutch all along. I believe you've found and confirmed the same.
 
WinterWolf said:
Do you use the Hurricane tool to align/adjust offset when going back to stock secondary?
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No. I measured it off the back of the primary to the back of the secondary like the manual shows.
 
WinterWolf said:
Do you use the Hurricane tool to align/adjust offset when going back to stock secondary?
Click to expand...
no I'm using a straight edge , with the Tapp I had to add 1washer behind the stock secondary to achieve my offset , before
I had the stock clutch I had zero washers were needed . but don't go by what I have done , I think every sled is different and needs to be checked properly . I'm currently checking my offset for the stm and is different then stock .only because the post is 3mm longer ,
 
STAIN said:
Well I am pleased to report that my TAPP primary/ STOCK secondary set up worked perfectly for our 1000 mile 4 day ride. No heat, slippage or other ugliness. Great performance and pull all the way through the top.
I was going to fool with the Pro-4 to get to work correctly but at this point I may just shelf it for now as this combo is working great. I may even sell it....
Click to expand...

STAIN, sorry if I missed it, but what is your measured offset with the trouble-free TAPP/Stock secondary you just ran on your trip?
 
Ran a TAPP/stock secondary setup in the UP this weekend. Ran two different helixes. First day, straight 38, B/O spring wrapped 6+3. Belt temps consistently 150-165 (measured real time on Razorback gauge). Sled ran good and punchy. Never opened it past ~110 mph because riding with dad. No blown belts. Offset 60.5 mm (I intend to have 2.5 mm milled off in the off season and shim to 59 mm, however).

Second day, ran 41/35, B/O wrapped 6+3. Sled was a little snappier out of the corners. Belt temps only negligibly (1-2 degrees) higher than straight 38 at similar RPM's. Same XS825 belt both days. Will do more testing next season, but I'm going to start with the 41/35 and work from there. No blown belts, but no back-to-back dead stop hard pulls either. Didn't top end either, so can't give feedback on that. Love the shift out though on the 41/35.

Couple other notes:

1. I prefer the C & A Pro skis over the Curves. Had less push in the corners, more grip with the C & A Pro skis. I have 8" Slim Jim Dooly's on both. Ran both with 192 studs. Prefer C & A Pro both in performance and looks.

2. Razorback belt temp gauge is a must-have if you want to understand how riding style affects belt temps. Very informative. As has been said on this forum, it's incredible how high the belt temp jumps when you slow down and come to a dead stop. If you're cruising 70-80 mph, stop, and immediately drag race, those belt temps are going to skyrocket into blow territory.

3. Riding miles and miles with a 3" can is deafening. May re-think this setup next season. I love the aggressive race sound, but holy cow is it deafening after a few hours.

4. Group of Poo guys came screaming up behind us at the gas station in Grand Marais and literally locked up the brakes to avoid hitting us at the pumps. So dumb. As I walked back to sled to get it out of the way, guy on an 850 Poo said "why don't you buy a real sled." I didn't hear it, but my dad did and told me when we stopped by the lake for a pic. Pretty funny. I was slow rolling it out of town hoping the Poo guys would come down Trail 443. Was hoping to show them what a real sled with 300+ hp does to a Poo lol.

Grand Marais

Grand Marais


Grand Marais

Grand Marais


Pike Lake

Pike Lake


Pine Stump

Pine Stump

 
I also run Razorback IR gage. Keep in mind the "influence" of the very hot exhaust manifold that is only about 4-5" away from secondary. Once you stop, air coming through sled pretty much stops too and then hot parts like the exhaust heat other parts near them including the air around them. Air molecules heat up just like molecules in solid objects. IR is measuring the "heat" in the molecules it sees. When I stop I can watch the temp rise on my IR gage sometimes pretty fast. Since the sled isn't moving, I deduce that the belt didn't suddenly gain 20 degrees. Hot air came between the sensor and the belt. As soon as you take off again, belt temp immediately cools back to where it was before stop.
 
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